Item
Don Sawyer Oral History, 2020/04/19
Media
Title (Dublin Core)
Don Sawyer Oral History, 2020/04/19
Description (Dublin Core)
Don is a 57-year-old African American man. He works for a marketing research company and also makes films. He had COVID-19 at the time of the interview and discussed the symptoms he experienced. Don discusses how COVID-19 impacted his job. He talks about how Trump and the federal government handled COVID-19 and governors governed their states throughout COVID-19. He remarks on the shortage of PPE, ventilators, and the lack of COVID-19 tests. Don was unable to get a COVID-19 test unless he was hospitalized due to the shortage.
Recording Date (Dublin Core)
Creator (Dublin Core)
Contributor (Dublin Core)
Type (Dublin Core)
video
Controlled Vocabulary (Dublin Core)
Curator's Tags (Omeka Classic)
Collection (Dublin Core)
Date Submitted (Dublin Core)
07/27/2020
Date Modified (Dublin Core)
10/21/2020
11/17/2020
03/01/2021
06/15/2021
09/06/2021
05/01/2022
09/29/2022
Interviewer (Bibliographic Ontology)
Andy Townsend
Interviewee (Bibliographic Ontology)
Don Sawyer
Location (Omeka Classic)
46202
Indianapolis
Indiana
United States of America
Format (Dublin Core)
Video
Coverage (Dublin Core)
March 2020
April 2020
Language (Dublin Core)
English
Duration (Omeka Classic)
00:59:04
Transcription (Omeka Classic)
Transcript of Interview with Don Sawyer by Andy Townsend
Interviewer: Andy Townsend
Interviewee: Don Sawyer
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Date: 19 April 2020
Transcriber: Sally Velez
Andy Townsend 00:01
Alright, so we are recording right now hang on a second. Let me pull up something here. Okay, so this is the COVID-19 Oral History Project. My name is Andy Townsend. I am in Indianapolis, Indiana is 12:10 In the afternoon, I am interviewing Don Sawyer. Don, are you there?
Don Sawyer 00:41
I'm here.
Andy Townsend 00:43
Now, why don't you spell your name for the transcriber.
Don Sawyer 00:50
D O N S A W Y E R
Andy Townsend 00:56
And how old are you?
Don Sawyer 00:58
57.
Andy Townsend 01:00
How would you best describe your race or ethnicity?
Don Sawyer 01:06
African American.
Andy Townsend 01:08
And where are you right now, Don?
Don Sawyer 01:12
Indianapolis, Indiana.
Andy Townsend 01:15
Okay, great. We got all that out of the way. So, Don, we want to talk to you a little bit about how you have been dealing with the COVID 19 pandemic. You are unique in that you believe that you have it. Is that correct?
Don Sawyer 01:36
Yes.
Andy Townsend 01:39
And I guess I'll first go back a little bit and, and ask you some basic things about how you're living right now. And then, and then we'll back into that a little bit later. Where are you living right now? What's your home life like? Are you living with people? How are you dealing with being quarantined? What is your day to day life like?
Don Sawyer 02:08
I live alone. My day to day hasn't changed drastically. It has changed for sure. But not drastically because I work from home also. So it wasn't a complete transition. I was I mean, prior to Coronavirus, I was doing things like going to Indianapolis University to, to sit in their library and work or I would go to a coffee shop and work, just to get out of the house. Because all I do is work from home. So coming back to just work from home. It wasn't that big of an adjustment. The adjustment has been getting a whole lot of food and cooking every day. And, and stocking up to where I don't have to go to the store. I think I did that pretty well. I haven't had to make frequent runs to the store. And then I got sick. So I couldn't go to the store. But I had everything that I needed. So it's been it's been kind of pretty efficient. I mean, I, while I've been sick, I've had to. I mean, if it weren't for binging The West Wing, all seven seasons. I don't know if I would have got through it to be honest with you. But I've also binged Ozark and other shows. I've watched a lot of television because there's not much else you can do when, when you have this virus. But I have done a little bit of work also as I've started to feel better. So in that way, it's just a social contact is, is it's starting to get difficult, not having contact but I'm doing zoom all the time and, and calls all the time. But it's not the same.
Andy Townsend 04:11
Yeah. Can. Think back to when you very first heard about this pandemic. And describe when you learned about it a little bit and how your thoughts about it have evolved over time?
Don Sawyer 04:34
Mmh. I think I first heard about it just prior to a trip that me and my film partner made to Seattle. And I, it wasn't a big concern at that point. But I think we were aware of it. And I mean had not hit Seattle, Seattle was the first place it hit, it had not hits Seattle. But I believe we were in conversations like, you know, I hope this thing doesn't hit the United States, because we were going to be in a conference in Seattle in March. And then of all the places that it hit in the United States, it hit Seattle, and that was maybe a week or two after we had been there, probably two weeks after we had been there. And then it hit so furiously in Seattle, that they were saying the virus was there way before they detected it. So then, my thinking on Coronavirus, started to think, Wow, I wonder if we were infected, you know, when we were there, but as time went on, didn't show any symptoms, and kind of forgot about that. But then when we kept watching the Coronavirus grow in Seattle, we, you know, we were at the same time rehearsing the presentation we were gonna give at the conference. And it just it was just like a slow moving train that you're not going to Seattle, they're going to shut the conference down. And they eventually did.
Andy Townsend 06:26
What conference was that, Don?
Don Sawyer 06:29
It was the housing first partners conference. It's a bi-annual conference, and we had a pretty big role in it. We were filming the conference for the organizers. And we were contracted to do that. We were doing a plenary presentation. And I was going to be moderating some groups there at plenaries, and also breakout groups. So we had a pretty big, big roll of it. And it just got canceled because, and they were, they were been pretty stubborn. They were canceling it immediately. But then Universities and other places that were sending people started telling their personnel that they're not going to let them fly to Seattle. So it just they had no choice but to cancel it. So my thinking on Coronavirus, started understanding that this is going to be a problem.
Andy Townsend 07:36
Okay, and then you went on for a while, like most of us did, probably and you know, tried to make some changes, you know, in terms of how you're interacting with people and so forth. But then something happened at some point where you thought you had contracted it.
Don Sawyer 07:56
Right.
Andy Townsend 07:56
Can you tell tell, tell tell a little bit of your story about that journey?
Don Sawyer 08:03
Well, my personal journey, you know, in, in kind of feeling like I was getting getting sick was that, you know, I have a history of, of nasal infections. And I started to think that's what it was. And then it became kind of clear that it's not a nasal infection. And my body started feeling in ways that I've, it's, it's, it was crazy. It was, I was getting huge body aches, I was getting, I'll tell you the way that it started, where I realized that I was I was sick, was I was sitting here at this desk, and this, this huge chill came all over my body. And the chill was it was clear that after the chill was over, I was no longer well. I was really sick at that point. And, and I had never felt a chill like that before. Never felt like that before. And you know, leading up to that time, I was starting to not feel very good because I was going out every day to the park and walking a couple of miles. I was doing all this stuff and my energy level was steadily going down and then when that chill hit, it was like it took like the rest of my energy. And so at the point, that I realized that it was probably the Coronavirus was when my energy was so low that I could barely get up out of bed and go to my couch. So that was the first symptom that my energy was completely gone. The second was constant chills, and the third was huge body aches, my my chest would get would get tight, and my breathing would get a little constricted. Because I'm acutely aware of my breathing. You know, I'm, I have pretty bad allergies, I was on a lot of medicines, to try to keep it clear, try to keep that out of there. And I also I do the Navage system, that you cleanse your nose, I do it twice a day with saltwater. Viruses, you know, they start up in the nose, and this virus starts in the nose and goes to the base here. And that's how it progresses and then goes into the lungs. So that was, but I was doing that since December. So that was I think that was fortunate that I was doing the navage system all the way through this. I think it's lightened it. That's just my opinion. But then I called a nurse. I called my doctor's office and spoke with a nurse practitioner and told her everything that was going on. And you know, she didn't, she didn't say much. And I said to her, and so I'm not really sure that I have this thing. And she said, Oh, no, no, you aren't. I am 99.9% Sure you have Coronavirus. And, unfortunately, there's not any test available right now. You know, if you got hospitalized there would be but because, you know, there's no testing really. She said I couldn't get a test. And she mentioned about possibly prescribing a Z Pak, which is bacterial. And I said Well, how's anti bacterial help with a virus? And she said, Well, they're finding that then in some cases, when the chest gets congested and and breathing gets constricted, that somehow, you know, an anti bacterial, the Z Pak helps with symptoms, and helps with inflammation and may buy you some time to get past the virus. But she didn't think I was severe enough for that. And I agree with her and I didn't. I didn't think it made any sense anyway. But um, so that that was my journey that way, but what I really, you know, what kind of made me aware of what the symptoms were like is that my, my business partner, my, my film partner, got it. And he got a pretty bad he got, I think he was worse than I, I've been, his temperature was higher. That's the other thing I get. I have low grade fevers. Over the last five days, they've been consistent. But in the beginning, I didn't have any fever. But lately, I've had low grade fever today. I haven't had fever up to this point, but it normally comes at the end of the day. But, but through his journey through this I became very aware of the symptoms of this thing and what it's what it's like and how it acts. And then his wife got a positive test but she was asymptomatic. And so this is pretty. It's just been so, so with my partner getting it before I got it. I've been dealing with Coronavirus for, you know, well over a month.
Andy Townsend 14:17
Well, let's, let's talk about that just for a second. I need to insert here. Today's date. I don't think I said it when I introduced this. It's April 19 2020. And when did you start feeling this and I'm more curious when you talk to the nurse practitioner and she said there was there were no tests available here in Indianapolis I presume? When was that? How long? When did you get hit with this Don?
Don Sawyer 14:52
April 6, I believe it was, somewhere between the sixth and the eighth. I got hit with it and um I spoke with the nurse practitioner, probably about was this Sunday? Probably. Probably a week ago Monday, I spoke with her. Yeah, I think that's when I spoke with her.
Andy Townsend 15:23
Okay.
Don Sawyer 15:24
And she was pretty confident that I was on my way out of this. And, and that's how I feel. I feel like I'm on my way out of the virus but, go ahead.
Andy Townsend 15:35
Do you have any? Have you been in contact with your health care professionals in terms of when you can get a test? Or when maybe a test for in an antivirals available to know that you've built up some immunity? Is there been any discussion with regards to that?
Don Sawyer 15:57
Well, the you know, she was basically apologizing profusely about no tests being available, but she said, what's going to be more important coming up is the antibody test to, to understand, you know, immunities and stuff like that. So she, she didn't know when that was going to be available, but she knew that that's being worked on. And hopefully, in the future, with no day attached, that's going to be the move is to get the antibody test.
Andy Townsend 16:34
Okay, let's transition a little bit to how this has affected your, your employment, your financial life. What do you do when in what ways is this affected your jobs?
Don Sawyer 16:54
Well, I have two jobs, I have two businesses. One is the film business, the other is a market research business. And, you know, I'm lucky enough to have a market research job right now, usually, I have, you know, when I'm not doing film, I have two to three at one time. So it is affecting financially. A lot. But, you know, the, it's very, you know, normally, market research is recession proof, because it becomes even more important to not make any mistakes for companies providing products and services in tough times as is in times of plenty. So, so normally it has been recession proof. And the fact that I do have a job right now kind of, kind of says that this industry is going to continue to go forward, I anticipate there's going to be lots of lots of market research going on toward the end of the year. And I'm gonna have to dodge some of those jobs because I expect the film thing to pick up again. So anyway, as far, as the film business that's halted to a grinding stop, however, we've identified something to go film and we're talking to people about funding for that right now. So possibly next month, you know, that will pick up again too. So it's, it's dicey, though. I mean, it's, it's, it's pretty scary to think that you know, you don't have any income.
Andy Townsend 19:08
Yeah. In terms of how this has affected people around you, you mentioned your business partner. Has it affected your family is there anybody you know, that has has been affected by this?
Don Sawyer 19:34
Nobody in my family has it. That I, that I know I'm very worried about my 83 year old mother who is sequestered at home, she's self sequestered. I'm worried about my brother, who goes to work every day. He works for a food packaging company so they're considered essential. And, you know, my, my, the, the hometown where, where my mom and my brother live and there's a bunch of cousins is Richmond, Indiana, which is, you know, Smalls like 30,000 people. And they have very minimal, like 20 Something cases, only one death. There's no real Coronavirus outbreak happening there. And I think it lulls that city into a false sense of security. So, I worry about family members going out, like there's no problems. My mother did try once. And my uncle, her brother, you know, kind of got on her about it. So she stopped doing it. But no, I don't know anyone else other than my partner and his wife. And that's all I know who has it.
Andy Townsend 21:17
When you, when you go out? Are you noticing people taking precautions for the virus? And if so, how?
Don Sawyer 21:28
No. Well, I can't say no, I mean, there are people who have gloves on and masks. And, and you know, but, you know, you have people who don't, just walk around and like, like, screw it, you know, and and I don't really understand that very much. But I don't think it's, I think it's pretty typical of, of the mentality of the the place where I live.
Andy Townsend 22:08
And, and how do you perceive that mentality? What do you mean by that, Don?
Don Sawyer 22:22
I mean, that, that. I think in, this in this city, there's a combination of, if that virus jumps on me, I'm gonna jump back on him, you know, that kind of thing. I think that's kind of a mentality, I think there's a mentality of, you know, God will protect me. I think there's a mentality of, I'm, I'm gonna listen to my leader, my leader says, okay, for me go out and be, be normal, you know, that type of thing. There's a lot of Trump supporters here. I think this place is crawling with that mentality. But at the same time, it's not like, I don't think it's like, you know, like, Indiana is that also like, maybe the most polite places on earth. So, the courteous part of Indiana doesn't, you know, allow people to go out and just be completely discourteous to everybody around them. It's kind of like more, I'm not wearing gloves, I'm not wearing a mask, but if that's what you want to deal with this, okay. That's, that's how I would describe it.
Andy Townsend 23:41
You know, I think that for a lot of people, when they first heard about this, they didn't take it very seriously, because it wasn't happening to them or people that they know, it was, you know, it was over there somewhere, whether it be China or Seattle or whatever. But as time went on, and it became clear that this was something that you needed to pay attention to it was exploding around the country. I think a lot of people's opinions changed. Have you observed any of that?
Don Sawyer 24:20
Well, honestly, I've, I've been like, I haven't been outside for five days right now. And, and, and before that, I was out once in like, probably 10 days. So, you know, in the, the, what I'm basing, when I'm talking, I went to the store once and this is what I observed when I went to the store but I've been, I've been here so I can't really say that, but you know, talking on zoom with people talking on and, and, you know, I think there is an awareness that the virus is a killer. And I think I think that as time has gone on has, has changed some of this mentality. For example, like I said, maybe, maybe like, eight days ago, I went, well, actually seven days ago, no, eight days ago, a week ago yesterday, I went to the store. And I noticed that there were significantly more people with masks and gloves on. So I think that the people who are were hardened into thinking this isn't going to get a jump on me and if it does, it's not going to hurt me. I think there's a real calculation that most of the people who get this don't die. So. And I also think that there's a calculation that if I go ahead and get that out of the way, I'm going to have some immunity. I heard that, you know, I was talking to somebody the other day, that isn't sick, that's out all the time. Because they have to be for their job. And, and she told me that, that's what people are saying out there. So I really think that there is, and also a resignation that I'm gonna get it sooner or later anyway. So whatever. I think that's a lot of the thinking here.
Andy Townsend 26:39
Where are you getting most of your news nowadays?
Don Sawyer 26:42
Um mostly, well, I have my feeds on my phone. Flipboard, and also, you know, like, like, my feeds on, on my Google page, but I watch MSNBC, CNN, and Fox News for opposition research.
Andy Townsend 27:11
And how do you, how do you think they're covering it? How do you notice that some news sources, how do you perceive, perceived some as being better than others? And why?
Don Sawyer 27:26
Well, I'll try to be brief. I think.
Andy Townsend 27:32
I'm gonna put a clock on you Don.
Don Sawyer 27:34
[inudible] I, I think that, I don't think it's too hard to, and I don't say this lightly, I don't say this without any thought. I don't think it's too hard to stick a pin in a clown, who's, who's using, who's running the country like a business rather than being a president. The country is not a business, it's a country. And if you try to run it like a business, this is what you get. And so basically, I don't think it's too hard to make that plain for your viewer. Easy enough for a 10 year old to understand regardless of what is being said, or whatever, I don't think it's too hard to, to just present the facts in a way that the facts can't be disputed by spin. I just don't think it's that hard. And in the White House reporters, I think that as hard as it is, and, and I wouldn't want to be in their shoes. I mean, you have fire breathing at them or whatever. But when, like, for example, this guy, the President of United States just incited insurrection of the government of Minnesota, Virginia, and Michigan. He did it as plain as day it's illegal. And it's, it's flatly illegal. And he did it right after he gave guidelines, that of how to, how to open it. Now. I don't think it's too hard to get into this guy is upset that people didn't agree with him that he has absolute authority. And he doesn't. So what he's going to do is he's going to put this reasonable thing over here, and then he's going to try to incite his base to come up against the people who wouldn't agree with him. I don't think it's too hard to point these things out in a way that people clearly understand. So I don't think that the coverage is great. I also don't think that a bunch of people getting on TV, you know, like, on 10 all the time, you know, they're, they're everything is on 10. Everything's an outrage, everything is this. I don't think that's helpful either. I think that there's reasons to be outraged, but calmly explain why. And if you explain that, in a way that, that no amount of spin is going to dispute that or blow it out of the water, or even if it just has to carry on in a stalemate until November. Either way, just be confident in what you're reporting, confident in your facts, and stop chasing this, this guy around is basically it. And, and more of my third thing is just focus on what is happening. Like, it took way too long. For you know, the President would get up there every day, and talk about we're doing more testing than anybody in the world and, and how great the testing is going. And then I think it was yesterday or the day before Fauci finally got up and said, there is a discrepancy between the amount of tests that are available in the testing that's being done. And we understand that that's the first time that was ever acknowledged. And Trump is up there saying you can get testing. I'm sitting here, my partner's sitting there, we can't get tested. Right? So the I think the press is a, is a, is constrained by their corporate entities that own them. That's, and I think that they can only go so far, because I am, I am clear that I'm not smarter than anybody else. So they surely have to see all these things. But they don't report it correctly, because I think they are constrained. And so they become almost useless.
Andy Townsend 29:04
Well, let's do. Yes.
Don Sawyer 32:15
that's my that's my sick opinion. That's that's me as a sick guy. Go ahead.
Andy Townsend 32:51
Yeah, no, and that's a unique perspective, that I think, well, I mean, it's yours is always a unique perspective, Don, but you're certainly not unique in that particular opinion. How do you think things have been handled at the various levels? Federally? Locally? What's your opinion of how things have been? have been handled?
Don Sawyer 33:30
Oh, well. Well, federally, I think it is the, the, I think it's, it's, it's close to criminal. You know, how he's, how it's been handled. Starting, because during Trump's transition, before he took office, he was warned that there's a, a, uh particular vulnerability to a pandemic. It was one in the transition, then there were assessments made along the way. I think maybe, I, I could be wrong here. But I think in 2018, there was an assessment that there is not enough ventilators, there's not enough PPE, there's not a- completely ill prepared, you know, for a pandemic. And, as a response, he got rid of the department that's supposed to scour the earth looking for pandemics, and didn't, you know, act or replenish any of these supplies that were down so then even when the thing hit Seattle, which, you know, we were watching very closely, as I was saying earlier, he kept the ship off the shore, because the Coronavirus count was only 50 in the United States, and he wanted to keep it there. And he said it was contained. So hang on one second. So, and now it comes out his big claim to I was on it, you know, he, he shut down for flight traveled from China, in February, but there's over, over 40,000 People still flew from China. So I think it is a 100% failure on the administration's part. And, you know, I'd love to recall up some, some video about when Trump first started going out to these briefings. When it was clear, this was a pandemic and going across the country, he looked like a deer in headlights, like he was way over his head, like he had no idea how to deal with it. And before you know it, he was out there spinning and, and talking about the great job they did. All this stuff is so transparent, it's ridiculous. So on a federal level, I think it's a complete and utter failure. On a state level, I think that governors have done the best job that they can, you know, government budgets are always you know, very sensitive things, you know, I mean, they can't really afford big extra expenses most of the time. But after they figured out the Trump's a clown, then they started, you know, getting their regions together because they realized, people were going to travel between states. And I think that's been, been great, I think govern- I think a couple of governors Newsom and, and Coumo have emerged as, as really attractive leaders and, and Whitmer in Michigan and, and Dewine in Ohio. I mean, Ohio, is probably the most efficient state to deal with Coronavirus. Jumped on it early, did it, did it quietly, did it with discipline and, you know, and he's a Republican. So, you know, and, and so it's, it's, um, you know, I think his failure, Trump's failure has caused governors to, to act as nation states, and depending on what kind of state your, your state as in is what the governor has had to work with. I think overall, the governors have done a pretty good job. On the local level. And the only local level, and I'm anywhere near familiar with Indianapolis. And the only issue that I'm anywhere near knowing anything about is the most vulnerable population, which is the homeless, and I've been shut in here. So I don't really know all that much. But I know that this city was, this is all I can say about it. There's not a lot, there's not a lot of information available about how the city is dealing with the pandemic among their homeless population. And there is even less information about where they are being taken when they are tested positive.
Andy Townsend 39:37
You mentioned earlier that you were going to go to a conference and I happen to know that you were going to speak on the topic of the homeless population. And that's something that you've been working on for a long time. What is your background in that issue? And, and do talk a little bit about whatever you happen to know about how the homeless are being treated both locally, nationally and how this is, you know, affected that population?
Don Sawyer 40:05
Mhm. Well, I've been involved with the homeless issue since 2013. But well, before that I would be part of volunteer places that would take food and clothing and stuff, but that's the extent of it. In 2013 I made a film about homelessness in the city of Indianapolis and then in 2016, I made a second one. What it- these other- well, 2013 was released in 2014. And then the second one was released in 2016. And, and so I understand the issue pretty well. I have a lot of contacts around the country. You know, there are service providers that are nonprofit organizations, advocacy organizations, and I do know that the, the, the, the backlash, I mean, they're just trying to keep it under wraps until after November. And I'm sure both sides, both Republicans and Democrats would like to do this. They're keeping under wraps what's going on among the homeless community. But it only, the only logical conclusion is the, the fastest and most efficient way to spread Coronavirus is among the unsheltered homeless community. Because when they are on the street, they, they band together, they don't social distance. You know, well some of them do. But mostly there's, there's, there's some survival and safety in numbers. So, and information doesn't get to them that easily, you know, that's going on in the world, information that pertains to them. It does, but information about what's going on in the world. They neither care about nor do people care to keep them informed. This is overall, these are general statements. There are individuals within the homeowners community that are more informed than you and me, but in general, so you would think that that's the easiest way that this Coronavirus and it's so contagious, would, would circulate. And what makes that equation worse is that you have both volunteer and professional outreach workers from the general population that go and tend to them. And you have shelters that they go in and out of. So you would think that the Coronavirus will be spread very efficiently throughout that community and then infect the mainstream community. And we haven't heard anything about that. You know, and, and I'm sure that both sides would like to, to keep what's really happening under wraps until after November. Because the, the reality is, neither Democrats nor Republicans want to deal with the issue in a full way. But I know there's, I know of a shelter in an eastern seaboard state that is actually doing testing that has come up with 200 positives. And that shelter has the capacity of just over 700. So what, what's happening nationally is they're trying to, to depopulate shelters to where social distancing is, is possible. And those who do test positive those that are doing testing, they, they isolate, they attempt to isolate those, those clients with Coronavirus and so YMCA is, different places like that. Hotels including Hilton Hotel are, you know, have been made available. Since there's no other use for them right now. For quarantining homeless folks that have tested positive. And so everything, you know, like, like that is, is kept in, you know, anytime you hear anything about what's happening with the homeless population. You are, you hear positive things. Oh, look, Hilton, they're great corporate citizens and YMCA I mean, oh my gosh, and, and look how we're dealing with this, you know, but nobody is being able to get around a few basic notions, which is one, well, you know, how is all of this money all of a sudden available? You know, like, every time you hear about helping anything or anybody, there's always this, there is no money. But now there just seems to be lots of money, two is wouldn't it be easier and better for not just them, but because you don't really care about them. So think about yourself. Wouldn't it be safer for you? And the rest of society if these people were not left to live on the street? If they had their own spaces? They could quarantine. You know, so. So basically, that's what's gonna be coming, maybe even a year from now. But that's what's going to be coming. But I can't, I can't do anything other than speculate, which I don't I won't do about what's really going on up there. Because I've been in here, sequestered.
Andy Townsend 47:04
Well, let me ask you to speculate about something else, then. Do you think that this experience, this pandemic will have made any loss- lasting changes on both you personally, and in society?
Don Sawyer 47:25
Yeah, absolutely. I think that I don't think we'll ever be the same. I think that, I think that if people are sitting in a sports stadium and someone coughs, everybody's gonna run, you know, I think that you hear about viruses, you know, the flu virus, go get a flu shot, you hear about. You know, sicknesses are contagious. You know, they're, they're always like, they'd been thought of at this point, like you know, we'll get over it, you know, if you get sick, you'll get sick, it's the season. And, and nothing really changes. People don't really wash their hands that much. People don't, they're not really aware. I think, at this point, people are going to be going forward from here, even if they get a vaccine, and this virus becomes, you know, something that you get a shot for every year, like a flu shot, which it probably will, it probably will happen that way. But I think people are not going to forget this. I think they will. You know, hopefully anyway, they'll start to deal with personal hygiene better, you know, in terms of washing their hands and, and, you know, like covering their mouth when they cough and sneeze and stuff like that, I think, I think that will be a big change. I think the economy will change for sure. I think that you know, like for example I heard very early on in this that if you if you cleanse your nose with saltwater on the Navage system or some other system, you know, that kills viruses. If it is ever shown, excuse me, if it's ever shown that that's, that's true, then I think this Navage company, which is a very efficient little machine, will blow up. I think PPE companies Three M, will blow up, I think, I think different companies that manufacture products and services that will be helpful during a time like this, I think they'll blow up. And I also think that there's a significant amount of, of people in right now it's being stoked by the White House that this was a bio weapon gone mad, you know, got out of the lab, accidentally, before it can be used. That's what they're trying to sell. And, you know, and probably because they're not very smart in the White House, they just simply watched Stephen King's the stand. They didn't read it, they watched the movie, because that's exactly what happened. And so they're just thinking, how can we spin this? How can we take the heat off of us? And they don't care. That's the that's the problem is they just don't care about the country or people in it. They just care about them and their allies. So not to wonder, I think I think there's, it's, nothing's ever going to be the same. I think that like, okay, I'll give you this. This example, the only reason that myself and my partner got so much. And such a hope high profile in the conference that was going to be in Seattle, was because we have been jumping up and down for two years, preaching to everybody that we can, we came across because we were, we were shooting, we were doing research and development on a film. And all those people we were talking about, no one knows what you do. No one knows that you've developed a cure or a solution to homelessness, no one knows that. And the general public, you guys are living in a bubble. And if you're general, if the general person, the general business person, anybody, if they knew that there was a cost effective, highly effective way to end homelessness, they would go for, in terms in the government. And the decision makers would have no choice but to do it. But you have a big PR problem in that no one knows that you do it when they were jumping up and down. And then Trump fired their guy at the United States Interagency Council on Homelessness, hired a clown, who basically was saying the solution to homelessness is to get big, huge football sized fields facility, take them off the street and put them in there, and then make a gauntlet for them to get clean and sober and get out. Or else they'll just stay outside. Not even a tent out on a on a pad to sleep. And if that's the they want to live, let them live that way, you know, but put them all in one place. Well, that guy has his solution blown out of the water because of this Coronavirus thing. And as soon as he came in, and he was preaching that stuff. They turned to us and so you seem to be down the road on thinking about this, we're gonna give you a platform to express it. And I think that type of thing is going to happen to the economy going forward, that there's going to be marginalized ideas that we're, you know, on the cusp of just trying to get support for it and then now the situation changed to where they're going to become the experts. You know.
Andy Townsend 54:24
Okay. We've been talking here for around an hour, is there, is there anything that I hit on or we didn't talk about that you maybe want to clarify or something that you want to say?
Don Sawyer 54:44
Um the only thing I would say is um, the only I would say is, is there, there's no precaution that's too much for, you know, like even- before I got, before I got sick, I would go, when I would go out, this was a few days before I got sick. So I was infected before obviously, but, but, um, the incubation period is anywhere from three to 14 days, and some say 21 day. So, I was already infected. But when I heard the news about this thing, I totally, you know, like I have, I have gloves and I have a mask, I go to the store, I have, I have this Purell surface cleaner stuff that they use in restaurants, you know, either at the store or I use that to get, you know, before anything would come into my house, I would, I would, um, disinfect everything, and the bags and the boxes, they would come in, they go straight to the trash, they wouldn't come into my house, everything that came into my house was sterilized, you know, then I would take off my clothes at my door and take them straight in to the, to the washer, and started, put other clothes on, come back out. After sterilizing my gloves, get all my groceries, bring them inside, you know, is a big pain. But I don't think any type of precaution is too much during this time, because, you know, if I could not get this virus and wait until they had some kind of vaccine for it. That's what I would do because it is no fun. It's, it's different than any sickness you've ever had, which makes it scary. You feel like you've never felt before, which is really scary. And then you see reports about people who drop dead in their sleep and stuff like this, or people who had no pre existing conditions and, and die. It's completely random. And if you can avoid getting it, I would avoid getting it. If you do get it, then you know the only real thing you can do is Tylenol and try to keep your temperature down and manage your systems. But there's nothing so you just have to wait it out and you have to take the time to do nothing to wait it out. I will say this, if anybody has Coronavirus, and it happened with my partner too, like last Saturday, I was feeling pretty good. So I went and did this giant two hour excursion to the store to stock up. And the good news is I am stocked up for a long time. Bad news is last week, I paid for it. You know, it was like too soon. And the backlash was severe. I didn't have a fever. You know, up until that point. All last week. I've been dealing with fever. I, I didn't have huge body aches. But last week, huge body aches, everything got worse. So the virus, you know if you have a great day or something like that, you know you need to ease into activity because if you overdo it and like I said it happened with my partner too the backlash is pretty severe. So I think you're, you're not over it until you're over it. That's all I would say.
Andy Townsend 58:45
All right, thanks a lot Don. I'm gonna go ahead and stop the recording now.
Don Sawyer 58:53
Okay.
Andy Townsend 58:53
And,there we go.
Interviewer: Andy Townsend
Interviewee: Don Sawyer
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Date: 19 April 2020
Transcriber: Sally Velez
Andy Townsend 00:01
Alright, so we are recording right now hang on a second. Let me pull up something here. Okay, so this is the COVID-19 Oral History Project. My name is Andy Townsend. I am in Indianapolis, Indiana is 12:10 In the afternoon, I am interviewing Don Sawyer. Don, are you there?
Don Sawyer 00:41
I'm here.
Andy Townsend 00:43
Now, why don't you spell your name for the transcriber.
Don Sawyer 00:50
D O N S A W Y E R
Andy Townsend 00:56
And how old are you?
Don Sawyer 00:58
57.
Andy Townsend 01:00
How would you best describe your race or ethnicity?
Don Sawyer 01:06
African American.
Andy Townsend 01:08
And where are you right now, Don?
Don Sawyer 01:12
Indianapolis, Indiana.
Andy Townsend 01:15
Okay, great. We got all that out of the way. So, Don, we want to talk to you a little bit about how you have been dealing with the COVID 19 pandemic. You are unique in that you believe that you have it. Is that correct?
Don Sawyer 01:36
Yes.
Andy Townsend 01:39
And I guess I'll first go back a little bit and, and ask you some basic things about how you're living right now. And then, and then we'll back into that a little bit later. Where are you living right now? What's your home life like? Are you living with people? How are you dealing with being quarantined? What is your day to day life like?
Don Sawyer 02:08
I live alone. My day to day hasn't changed drastically. It has changed for sure. But not drastically because I work from home also. So it wasn't a complete transition. I was I mean, prior to Coronavirus, I was doing things like going to Indianapolis University to, to sit in their library and work or I would go to a coffee shop and work, just to get out of the house. Because all I do is work from home. So coming back to just work from home. It wasn't that big of an adjustment. The adjustment has been getting a whole lot of food and cooking every day. And, and stocking up to where I don't have to go to the store. I think I did that pretty well. I haven't had to make frequent runs to the store. And then I got sick. So I couldn't go to the store. But I had everything that I needed. So it's been it's been kind of pretty efficient. I mean, I, while I've been sick, I've had to. I mean, if it weren't for binging The West Wing, all seven seasons. I don't know if I would have got through it to be honest with you. But I've also binged Ozark and other shows. I've watched a lot of television because there's not much else you can do when, when you have this virus. But I have done a little bit of work also as I've started to feel better. So in that way, it's just a social contact is, is it's starting to get difficult, not having contact but I'm doing zoom all the time and, and calls all the time. But it's not the same.
Andy Townsend 04:11
Yeah. Can. Think back to when you very first heard about this pandemic. And describe when you learned about it a little bit and how your thoughts about it have evolved over time?
Don Sawyer 04:34
Mmh. I think I first heard about it just prior to a trip that me and my film partner made to Seattle. And I, it wasn't a big concern at that point. But I think we were aware of it. And I mean had not hit Seattle, Seattle was the first place it hit, it had not hits Seattle. But I believe we were in conversations like, you know, I hope this thing doesn't hit the United States, because we were going to be in a conference in Seattle in March. And then of all the places that it hit in the United States, it hit Seattle, and that was maybe a week or two after we had been there, probably two weeks after we had been there. And then it hit so furiously in Seattle, that they were saying the virus was there way before they detected it. So then, my thinking on Coronavirus, started to think, Wow, I wonder if we were infected, you know, when we were there, but as time went on, didn't show any symptoms, and kind of forgot about that. But then when we kept watching the Coronavirus grow in Seattle, we, you know, we were at the same time rehearsing the presentation we were gonna give at the conference. And it just it was just like a slow moving train that you're not going to Seattle, they're going to shut the conference down. And they eventually did.
Andy Townsend 06:26
What conference was that, Don?
Don Sawyer 06:29
It was the housing first partners conference. It's a bi-annual conference, and we had a pretty big role in it. We were filming the conference for the organizers. And we were contracted to do that. We were doing a plenary presentation. And I was going to be moderating some groups there at plenaries, and also breakout groups. So we had a pretty big, big roll of it. And it just got canceled because, and they were, they were been pretty stubborn. They were canceling it immediately. But then Universities and other places that were sending people started telling their personnel that they're not going to let them fly to Seattle. So it just they had no choice but to cancel it. So my thinking on Coronavirus, started understanding that this is going to be a problem.
Andy Townsend 07:36
Okay, and then you went on for a while, like most of us did, probably and you know, tried to make some changes, you know, in terms of how you're interacting with people and so forth. But then something happened at some point where you thought you had contracted it.
Don Sawyer 07:56
Right.
Andy Townsend 07:56
Can you tell tell, tell tell a little bit of your story about that journey?
Don Sawyer 08:03
Well, my personal journey, you know, in, in kind of feeling like I was getting getting sick was that, you know, I have a history of, of nasal infections. And I started to think that's what it was. And then it became kind of clear that it's not a nasal infection. And my body started feeling in ways that I've, it's, it's, it was crazy. It was, I was getting huge body aches, I was getting, I'll tell you the way that it started, where I realized that I was I was sick, was I was sitting here at this desk, and this, this huge chill came all over my body. And the chill was it was clear that after the chill was over, I was no longer well. I was really sick at that point. And, and I had never felt a chill like that before. Never felt like that before. And you know, leading up to that time, I was starting to not feel very good because I was going out every day to the park and walking a couple of miles. I was doing all this stuff and my energy level was steadily going down and then when that chill hit, it was like it took like the rest of my energy. And so at the point, that I realized that it was probably the Coronavirus was when my energy was so low that I could barely get up out of bed and go to my couch. So that was the first symptom that my energy was completely gone. The second was constant chills, and the third was huge body aches, my my chest would get would get tight, and my breathing would get a little constricted. Because I'm acutely aware of my breathing. You know, I'm, I have pretty bad allergies, I was on a lot of medicines, to try to keep it clear, try to keep that out of there. And I also I do the Navage system, that you cleanse your nose, I do it twice a day with saltwater. Viruses, you know, they start up in the nose, and this virus starts in the nose and goes to the base here. And that's how it progresses and then goes into the lungs. So that was, but I was doing that since December. So that was I think that was fortunate that I was doing the navage system all the way through this. I think it's lightened it. That's just my opinion. But then I called a nurse. I called my doctor's office and spoke with a nurse practitioner and told her everything that was going on. And you know, she didn't, she didn't say much. And I said to her, and so I'm not really sure that I have this thing. And she said, Oh, no, no, you aren't. I am 99.9% Sure you have Coronavirus. And, unfortunately, there's not any test available right now. You know, if you got hospitalized there would be but because, you know, there's no testing really. She said I couldn't get a test. And she mentioned about possibly prescribing a Z Pak, which is bacterial. And I said Well, how's anti bacterial help with a virus? And she said, Well, they're finding that then in some cases, when the chest gets congested and and breathing gets constricted, that somehow, you know, an anti bacterial, the Z Pak helps with symptoms, and helps with inflammation and may buy you some time to get past the virus. But she didn't think I was severe enough for that. And I agree with her and I didn't. I didn't think it made any sense anyway. But um, so that that was my journey that way, but what I really, you know, what kind of made me aware of what the symptoms were like is that my, my business partner, my, my film partner, got it. And he got a pretty bad he got, I think he was worse than I, I've been, his temperature was higher. That's the other thing I get. I have low grade fevers. Over the last five days, they've been consistent. But in the beginning, I didn't have any fever. But lately, I've had low grade fever today. I haven't had fever up to this point, but it normally comes at the end of the day. But, but through his journey through this I became very aware of the symptoms of this thing and what it's what it's like and how it acts. And then his wife got a positive test but she was asymptomatic. And so this is pretty. It's just been so, so with my partner getting it before I got it. I've been dealing with Coronavirus for, you know, well over a month.
Andy Townsend 14:17
Well, let's, let's talk about that just for a second. I need to insert here. Today's date. I don't think I said it when I introduced this. It's April 19 2020. And when did you start feeling this and I'm more curious when you talk to the nurse practitioner and she said there was there were no tests available here in Indianapolis I presume? When was that? How long? When did you get hit with this Don?
Don Sawyer 14:52
April 6, I believe it was, somewhere between the sixth and the eighth. I got hit with it and um I spoke with the nurse practitioner, probably about was this Sunday? Probably. Probably a week ago Monday, I spoke with her. Yeah, I think that's when I spoke with her.
Andy Townsend 15:23
Okay.
Don Sawyer 15:24
And she was pretty confident that I was on my way out of this. And, and that's how I feel. I feel like I'm on my way out of the virus but, go ahead.
Andy Townsend 15:35
Do you have any? Have you been in contact with your health care professionals in terms of when you can get a test? Or when maybe a test for in an antivirals available to know that you've built up some immunity? Is there been any discussion with regards to that?
Don Sawyer 15:57
Well, the you know, she was basically apologizing profusely about no tests being available, but she said, what's going to be more important coming up is the antibody test to, to understand, you know, immunities and stuff like that. So she, she didn't know when that was going to be available, but she knew that that's being worked on. And hopefully, in the future, with no day attached, that's going to be the move is to get the antibody test.
Andy Townsend 16:34
Okay, let's transition a little bit to how this has affected your, your employment, your financial life. What do you do when in what ways is this affected your jobs?
Don Sawyer 16:54
Well, I have two jobs, I have two businesses. One is the film business, the other is a market research business. And, you know, I'm lucky enough to have a market research job right now, usually, I have, you know, when I'm not doing film, I have two to three at one time. So it is affecting financially. A lot. But, you know, the, it's very, you know, normally, market research is recession proof, because it becomes even more important to not make any mistakes for companies providing products and services in tough times as is in times of plenty. So, so normally it has been recession proof. And the fact that I do have a job right now kind of, kind of says that this industry is going to continue to go forward, I anticipate there's going to be lots of lots of market research going on toward the end of the year. And I'm gonna have to dodge some of those jobs because I expect the film thing to pick up again. So anyway, as far, as the film business that's halted to a grinding stop, however, we've identified something to go film and we're talking to people about funding for that right now. So possibly next month, you know, that will pick up again too. So it's, it's dicey, though. I mean, it's, it's, it's pretty scary to think that you know, you don't have any income.
Andy Townsend 19:08
Yeah. In terms of how this has affected people around you, you mentioned your business partner. Has it affected your family is there anybody you know, that has has been affected by this?
Don Sawyer 19:34
Nobody in my family has it. That I, that I know I'm very worried about my 83 year old mother who is sequestered at home, she's self sequestered. I'm worried about my brother, who goes to work every day. He works for a food packaging company so they're considered essential. And, you know, my, my, the, the hometown where, where my mom and my brother live and there's a bunch of cousins is Richmond, Indiana, which is, you know, Smalls like 30,000 people. And they have very minimal, like 20 Something cases, only one death. There's no real Coronavirus outbreak happening there. And I think it lulls that city into a false sense of security. So, I worry about family members going out, like there's no problems. My mother did try once. And my uncle, her brother, you know, kind of got on her about it. So she stopped doing it. But no, I don't know anyone else other than my partner and his wife. And that's all I know who has it.
Andy Townsend 21:17
When you, when you go out? Are you noticing people taking precautions for the virus? And if so, how?
Don Sawyer 21:28
No. Well, I can't say no, I mean, there are people who have gloves on and masks. And, and you know, but, you know, you have people who don't, just walk around and like, like, screw it, you know, and and I don't really understand that very much. But I don't think it's, I think it's pretty typical of, of the mentality of the the place where I live.
Andy Townsend 22:08
And, and how do you perceive that mentality? What do you mean by that, Don?
Don Sawyer 22:22
I mean, that, that. I think in, this in this city, there's a combination of, if that virus jumps on me, I'm gonna jump back on him, you know, that kind of thing. I think that's kind of a mentality, I think there's a mentality of, you know, God will protect me. I think there's a mentality of, I'm, I'm gonna listen to my leader, my leader says, okay, for me go out and be, be normal, you know, that type of thing. There's a lot of Trump supporters here. I think this place is crawling with that mentality. But at the same time, it's not like, I don't think it's like, you know, like, Indiana is that also like, maybe the most polite places on earth. So, the courteous part of Indiana doesn't, you know, allow people to go out and just be completely discourteous to everybody around them. It's kind of like more, I'm not wearing gloves, I'm not wearing a mask, but if that's what you want to deal with this, okay. That's, that's how I would describe it.
Andy Townsend 23:41
You know, I think that for a lot of people, when they first heard about this, they didn't take it very seriously, because it wasn't happening to them or people that they know, it was, you know, it was over there somewhere, whether it be China or Seattle or whatever. But as time went on, and it became clear that this was something that you needed to pay attention to it was exploding around the country. I think a lot of people's opinions changed. Have you observed any of that?
Don Sawyer 24:20
Well, honestly, I've, I've been like, I haven't been outside for five days right now. And, and, and before that, I was out once in like, probably 10 days. So, you know, in the, the, what I'm basing, when I'm talking, I went to the store once and this is what I observed when I went to the store but I've been, I've been here so I can't really say that, but you know, talking on zoom with people talking on and, and, you know, I think there is an awareness that the virus is a killer. And I think I think that as time has gone on has, has changed some of this mentality. For example, like I said, maybe, maybe like, eight days ago, I went, well, actually seven days ago, no, eight days ago, a week ago yesterday, I went to the store. And I noticed that there were significantly more people with masks and gloves on. So I think that the people who are were hardened into thinking this isn't going to get a jump on me and if it does, it's not going to hurt me. I think there's a real calculation that most of the people who get this don't die. So. And I also think that there's a calculation that if I go ahead and get that out of the way, I'm going to have some immunity. I heard that, you know, I was talking to somebody the other day, that isn't sick, that's out all the time. Because they have to be for their job. And, and she told me that, that's what people are saying out there. So I really think that there is, and also a resignation that I'm gonna get it sooner or later anyway. So whatever. I think that's a lot of the thinking here.
Andy Townsend 26:39
Where are you getting most of your news nowadays?
Don Sawyer 26:42
Um mostly, well, I have my feeds on my phone. Flipboard, and also, you know, like, like, my feeds on, on my Google page, but I watch MSNBC, CNN, and Fox News for opposition research.
Andy Townsend 27:11
And how do you, how do you think they're covering it? How do you notice that some news sources, how do you perceive, perceived some as being better than others? And why?
Don Sawyer 27:26
Well, I'll try to be brief. I think.
Andy Townsend 27:32
I'm gonna put a clock on you Don.
Don Sawyer 27:34
[inudible] I, I think that, I don't think it's too hard to, and I don't say this lightly, I don't say this without any thought. I don't think it's too hard to stick a pin in a clown, who's, who's using, who's running the country like a business rather than being a president. The country is not a business, it's a country. And if you try to run it like a business, this is what you get. And so basically, I don't think it's too hard to make that plain for your viewer. Easy enough for a 10 year old to understand regardless of what is being said, or whatever, I don't think it's too hard to, to just present the facts in a way that the facts can't be disputed by spin. I just don't think it's that hard. And in the White House reporters, I think that as hard as it is, and, and I wouldn't want to be in their shoes. I mean, you have fire breathing at them or whatever. But when, like, for example, this guy, the President of United States just incited insurrection of the government of Minnesota, Virginia, and Michigan. He did it as plain as day it's illegal. And it's, it's flatly illegal. And he did it right after he gave guidelines, that of how to, how to open it. Now. I don't think it's too hard to get into this guy is upset that people didn't agree with him that he has absolute authority. And he doesn't. So what he's going to do is he's going to put this reasonable thing over here, and then he's going to try to incite his base to come up against the people who wouldn't agree with him. I don't think it's too hard to point these things out in a way that people clearly understand. So I don't think that the coverage is great. I also don't think that a bunch of people getting on TV, you know, like, on 10 all the time, you know, they're, they're everything is on 10. Everything's an outrage, everything is this. I don't think that's helpful either. I think that there's reasons to be outraged, but calmly explain why. And if you explain that, in a way that, that no amount of spin is going to dispute that or blow it out of the water, or even if it just has to carry on in a stalemate until November. Either way, just be confident in what you're reporting, confident in your facts, and stop chasing this, this guy around is basically it. And, and more of my third thing is just focus on what is happening. Like, it took way too long. For you know, the President would get up there every day, and talk about we're doing more testing than anybody in the world and, and how great the testing is going. And then I think it was yesterday or the day before Fauci finally got up and said, there is a discrepancy between the amount of tests that are available in the testing that's being done. And we understand that that's the first time that was ever acknowledged. And Trump is up there saying you can get testing. I'm sitting here, my partner's sitting there, we can't get tested. Right? So the I think the press is a, is a, is constrained by their corporate entities that own them. That's, and I think that they can only go so far, because I am, I am clear that I'm not smarter than anybody else. So they surely have to see all these things. But they don't report it correctly, because I think they are constrained. And so they become almost useless.
Andy Townsend 29:04
Well, let's do. Yes.
Don Sawyer 32:15
that's my that's my sick opinion. That's that's me as a sick guy. Go ahead.
Andy Townsend 32:51
Yeah, no, and that's a unique perspective, that I think, well, I mean, it's yours is always a unique perspective, Don, but you're certainly not unique in that particular opinion. How do you think things have been handled at the various levels? Federally? Locally? What's your opinion of how things have been? have been handled?
Don Sawyer 33:30
Oh, well. Well, federally, I think it is the, the, I think it's, it's, it's close to criminal. You know, how he's, how it's been handled. Starting, because during Trump's transition, before he took office, he was warned that there's a, a, uh particular vulnerability to a pandemic. It was one in the transition, then there were assessments made along the way. I think maybe, I, I could be wrong here. But I think in 2018, there was an assessment that there is not enough ventilators, there's not enough PPE, there's not a- completely ill prepared, you know, for a pandemic. And, as a response, he got rid of the department that's supposed to scour the earth looking for pandemics, and didn't, you know, act or replenish any of these supplies that were down so then even when the thing hit Seattle, which, you know, we were watching very closely, as I was saying earlier, he kept the ship off the shore, because the Coronavirus count was only 50 in the United States, and he wanted to keep it there. And he said it was contained. So hang on one second. So, and now it comes out his big claim to I was on it, you know, he, he shut down for flight traveled from China, in February, but there's over, over 40,000 People still flew from China. So I think it is a 100% failure on the administration's part. And, you know, I'd love to recall up some, some video about when Trump first started going out to these briefings. When it was clear, this was a pandemic and going across the country, he looked like a deer in headlights, like he was way over his head, like he had no idea how to deal with it. And before you know it, he was out there spinning and, and talking about the great job they did. All this stuff is so transparent, it's ridiculous. So on a federal level, I think it's a complete and utter failure. On a state level, I think that governors have done the best job that they can, you know, government budgets are always you know, very sensitive things, you know, I mean, they can't really afford big extra expenses most of the time. But after they figured out the Trump's a clown, then they started, you know, getting their regions together because they realized, people were going to travel between states. And I think that's been, been great, I think govern- I think a couple of governors Newsom and, and Coumo have emerged as, as really attractive leaders and, and Whitmer in Michigan and, and Dewine in Ohio. I mean, Ohio, is probably the most efficient state to deal with Coronavirus. Jumped on it early, did it, did it quietly, did it with discipline and, you know, and he's a Republican. So, you know, and, and so it's, it's, um, you know, I think his failure, Trump's failure has caused governors to, to act as nation states, and depending on what kind of state your, your state as in is what the governor has had to work with. I think overall, the governors have done a pretty good job. On the local level. And the only local level, and I'm anywhere near familiar with Indianapolis. And the only issue that I'm anywhere near knowing anything about is the most vulnerable population, which is the homeless, and I've been shut in here. So I don't really know all that much. But I know that this city was, this is all I can say about it. There's not a lot, there's not a lot of information available about how the city is dealing with the pandemic among their homeless population. And there is even less information about where they are being taken when they are tested positive.
Andy Townsend 39:37
You mentioned earlier that you were going to go to a conference and I happen to know that you were going to speak on the topic of the homeless population. And that's something that you've been working on for a long time. What is your background in that issue? And, and do talk a little bit about whatever you happen to know about how the homeless are being treated both locally, nationally and how this is, you know, affected that population?
Don Sawyer 40:05
Mhm. Well, I've been involved with the homeless issue since 2013. But well, before that I would be part of volunteer places that would take food and clothing and stuff, but that's the extent of it. In 2013 I made a film about homelessness in the city of Indianapolis and then in 2016, I made a second one. What it- these other- well, 2013 was released in 2014. And then the second one was released in 2016. And, and so I understand the issue pretty well. I have a lot of contacts around the country. You know, there are service providers that are nonprofit organizations, advocacy organizations, and I do know that the, the, the, the backlash, I mean, they're just trying to keep it under wraps until after November. And I'm sure both sides, both Republicans and Democrats would like to do this. They're keeping under wraps what's going on among the homeless community. But it only, the only logical conclusion is the, the fastest and most efficient way to spread Coronavirus is among the unsheltered homeless community. Because when they are on the street, they, they band together, they don't social distance. You know, well some of them do. But mostly there's, there's, there's some survival and safety in numbers. So, and information doesn't get to them that easily, you know, that's going on in the world, information that pertains to them. It does, but information about what's going on in the world. They neither care about nor do people care to keep them informed. This is overall, these are general statements. There are individuals within the homeowners community that are more informed than you and me, but in general, so you would think that that's the easiest way that this Coronavirus and it's so contagious, would, would circulate. And what makes that equation worse is that you have both volunteer and professional outreach workers from the general population that go and tend to them. And you have shelters that they go in and out of. So you would think that the Coronavirus will be spread very efficiently throughout that community and then infect the mainstream community. And we haven't heard anything about that. You know, and, and I'm sure that both sides would like to, to keep what's really happening under wraps until after November. Because the, the reality is, neither Democrats nor Republicans want to deal with the issue in a full way. But I know there's, I know of a shelter in an eastern seaboard state that is actually doing testing that has come up with 200 positives. And that shelter has the capacity of just over 700. So what, what's happening nationally is they're trying to, to depopulate shelters to where social distancing is, is possible. And those who do test positive those that are doing testing, they, they isolate, they attempt to isolate those, those clients with Coronavirus and so YMCA is, different places like that. Hotels including Hilton Hotel are, you know, have been made available. Since there's no other use for them right now. For quarantining homeless folks that have tested positive. And so everything, you know, like, like that is, is kept in, you know, anytime you hear anything about what's happening with the homeless population. You are, you hear positive things. Oh, look, Hilton, they're great corporate citizens and YMCA I mean, oh my gosh, and, and look how we're dealing with this, you know, but nobody is being able to get around a few basic notions, which is one, well, you know, how is all of this money all of a sudden available? You know, like, every time you hear about helping anything or anybody, there's always this, there is no money. But now there just seems to be lots of money, two is wouldn't it be easier and better for not just them, but because you don't really care about them. So think about yourself. Wouldn't it be safer for you? And the rest of society if these people were not left to live on the street? If they had their own spaces? They could quarantine. You know, so. So basically, that's what's gonna be coming, maybe even a year from now. But that's what's going to be coming. But I can't, I can't do anything other than speculate, which I don't I won't do about what's really going on up there. Because I've been in here, sequestered.
Andy Townsend 47:04
Well, let me ask you to speculate about something else, then. Do you think that this experience, this pandemic will have made any loss- lasting changes on both you personally, and in society?
Don Sawyer 47:25
Yeah, absolutely. I think that I don't think we'll ever be the same. I think that, I think that if people are sitting in a sports stadium and someone coughs, everybody's gonna run, you know, I think that you hear about viruses, you know, the flu virus, go get a flu shot, you hear about. You know, sicknesses are contagious. You know, they're, they're always like, they'd been thought of at this point, like you know, we'll get over it, you know, if you get sick, you'll get sick, it's the season. And, and nothing really changes. People don't really wash their hands that much. People don't, they're not really aware. I think, at this point, people are going to be going forward from here, even if they get a vaccine, and this virus becomes, you know, something that you get a shot for every year, like a flu shot, which it probably will, it probably will happen that way. But I think people are not going to forget this. I think they will. You know, hopefully anyway, they'll start to deal with personal hygiene better, you know, in terms of washing their hands and, and, you know, like covering their mouth when they cough and sneeze and stuff like that, I think, I think that will be a big change. I think the economy will change for sure. I think that you know, like for example I heard very early on in this that if you if you cleanse your nose with saltwater on the Navage system or some other system, you know, that kills viruses. If it is ever shown, excuse me, if it's ever shown that that's, that's true, then I think this Navage company, which is a very efficient little machine, will blow up. I think PPE companies Three M, will blow up, I think, I think different companies that manufacture products and services that will be helpful during a time like this, I think they'll blow up. And I also think that there's a significant amount of, of people in right now it's being stoked by the White House that this was a bio weapon gone mad, you know, got out of the lab, accidentally, before it can be used. That's what they're trying to sell. And, you know, and probably because they're not very smart in the White House, they just simply watched Stephen King's the stand. They didn't read it, they watched the movie, because that's exactly what happened. And so they're just thinking, how can we spin this? How can we take the heat off of us? And they don't care. That's the that's the problem is they just don't care about the country or people in it. They just care about them and their allies. So not to wonder, I think I think there's, it's, nothing's ever going to be the same. I think that like, okay, I'll give you this. This example, the only reason that myself and my partner got so much. And such a hope high profile in the conference that was going to be in Seattle, was because we have been jumping up and down for two years, preaching to everybody that we can, we came across because we were, we were shooting, we were doing research and development on a film. And all those people we were talking about, no one knows what you do. No one knows that you've developed a cure or a solution to homelessness, no one knows that. And the general public, you guys are living in a bubble. And if you're general, if the general person, the general business person, anybody, if they knew that there was a cost effective, highly effective way to end homelessness, they would go for, in terms in the government. And the decision makers would have no choice but to do it. But you have a big PR problem in that no one knows that you do it when they were jumping up and down. And then Trump fired their guy at the United States Interagency Council on Homelessness, hired a clown, who basically was saying the solution to homelessness is to get big, huge football sized fields facility, take them off the street and put them in there, and then make a gauntlet for them to get clean and sober and get out. Or else they'll just stay outside. Not even a tent out on a on a pad to sleep. And if that's the they want to live, let them live that way, you know, but put them all in one place. Well, that guy has his solution blown out of the water because of this Coronavirus thing. And as soon as he came in, and he was preaching that stuff. They turned to us and so you seem to be down the road on thinking about this, we're gonna give you a platform to express it. And I think that type of thing is going to happen to the economy going forward, that there's going to be marginalized ideas that we're, you know, on the cusp of just trying to get support for it and then now the situation changed to where they're going to become the experts. You know.
Andy Townsend 54:24
Okay. We've been talking here for around an hour, is there, is there anything that I hit on or we didn't talk about that you maybe want to clarify or something that you want to say?
Don Sawyer 54:44
Um the only thing I would say is um, the only I would say is, is there, there's no precaution that's too much for, you know, like even- before I got, before I got sick, I would go, when I would go out, this was a few days before I got sick. So I was infected before obviously, but, but, um, the incubation period is anywhere from three to 14 days, and some say 21 day. So, I was already infected. But when I heard the news about this thing, I totally, you know, like I have, I have gloves and I have a mask, I go to the store, I have, I have this Purell surface cleaner stuff that they use in restaurants, you know, either at the store or I use that to get, you know, before anything would come into my house, I would, I would, um, disinfect everything, and the bags and the boxes, they would come in, they go straight to the trash, they wouldn't come into my house, everything that came into my house was sterilized, you know, then I would take off my clothes at my door and take them straight in to the, to the washer, and started, put other clothes on, come back out. After sterilizing my gloves, get all my groceries, bring them inside, you know, is a big pain. But I don't think any type of precaution is too much during this time, because, you know, if I could not get this virus and wait until they had some kind of vaccine for it. That's what I would do because it is no fun. It's, it's different than any sickness you've ever had, which makes it scary. You feel like you've never felt before, which is really scary. And then you see reports about people who drop dead in their sleep and stuff like this, or people who had no pre existing conditions and, and die. It's completely random. And if you can avoid getting it, I would avoid getting it. If you do get it, then you know the only real thing you can do is Tylenol and try to keep your temperature down and manage your systems. But there's nothing so you just have to wait it out and you have to take the time to do nothing to wait it out. I will say this, if anybody has Coronavirus, and it happened with my partner too, like last Saturday, I was feeling pretty good. So I went and did this giant two hour excursion to the store to stock up. And the good news is I am stocked up for a long time. Bad news is last week, I paid for it. You know, it was like too soon. And the backlash was severe. I didn't have a fever. You know, up until that point. All last week. I've been dealing with fever. I, I didn't have huge body aches. But last week, huge body aches, everything got worse. So the virus, you know if you have a great day or something like that, you know you need to ease into activity because if you overdo it and like I said it happened with my partner too the backlash is pretty severe. So I think you're, you're not over it until you're over it. That's all I would say.
Andy Townsend 58:45
All right, thanks a lot Don. I'm gonna go ahead and stop the recording now.
Don Sawyer 58:53
Okay.
Andy Townsend 58:53
And,there we go.
Date Accepted (Dublin Core)
4/19/2020 18:04:49
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