Teboho Klaas Oral History 2020/04/11


Title (Dublin Core)

Teboho Klaas Oral History 2020/04/11

Description (Dublin Core)

Interview with bi-vocational South African pastor in the African Methodist Episcopal (AME) Church tradition who is also an officer in The Other Foundation, an LGBTQ+ rights organization.

Recording Date (Dublin Core)

Partner (Dublin Core)

Controlled Vocabulary (Dublin Core)


Curator's Tags (Omeka Classic)

Contributor's Tags (a true folksonomy) (Friend of a Friend)

Collection (Dublin Core)

Date Submitted (Dublin Core)


Date Modified (Dublin Core)


Interviewer (Bibliographic Ontology)

Shonda Nicole Gladden
Emily Leiserson

Interviewee (Bibliographic Ontology)

Teboho Klaas

Location (Omeka Classic)

South Africa

Format (Dublin Core)


Transcription (Omeka Classic)

Teboho Klaas COVID-19 Oral History Project Transcription
Graduate Researchers: Shonda Nicole Gladden and Emily Leiserson
Raw Transcript

Unknown 0:01
Do you see that it says we're recording.

Unknown 0:03
I see it, I see it.

Unknown 0:05
Okay. And do we have your consent to record you and the video and audio format.

Unknown 0:12
You have my consent.

Unknown 0:13
Thank you so much.

Unknown 0:16
And in the world right this moment is April 11 2020, and I am Shawna Nicole gladden, I am one of the Graduate Student researchers, with the COVID-19 oral histories project, and I am here with my co researcher who will introduce herself.

Unknown 0:38
Hi, I'm Emily Leiserson, I'll just be in the background on the call, but I might pop in with a few questions here and there, I'm here if you all need me. Otherwise I'll be on mute.

Unknown 0:51
And from Indianapolis we're grateful to welcome my interviewee who is

Unknown 1:00
an evidence people whole class. I am a pastor in the African Methodist Episcopal Church located in South Africa, just south of Johannesburg

Unknown 1:15
Lovelace is called for slower us.

Unknown 1:20
It's for small us. Nora, is it's a township in. We are just as I said southeast of Johannesburg. And I am also a fine vocational peasant because I passed the congregation, but I also work for a foundation called the other foundation and Community Trust for LGBTI people in 13, South African countries, saw in this conversation number just been moving between, you know, being a pastor, the experience of the things I've seen for seen in relation to my congregation, or even just the community around which the church is located in but I might just move on the basis of reports, I have with grantees and partners of the other foundation in some way invading other countries in southern Africa, the experiences, the conversations I've had with those people. And

Unknown 2:37
in the context of COVID-19.

Unknown 2:43
Rather than is exactly what we're looking forward to having you share that together we might hear what life is like for you as you are in the wake of COVID-19. So could you give us a bit of a timeline if you will for what COVID-19 has looked like in South Africa, when did you begin experiencing information about this disease and begin seeing any changes if you have in the life of what life looks like for you. Do you have a date.

Unknown 3:25
Yeah, I have a timeline, I drink, I have followed what the world organization has been in order to put in life in December, when they were talking about. Respiratory respiratory disease and respiratory disease that was so unusual in one, China, and Babs one of the reasons why I took interest is because I've caught a cold again, who is working in China, though not in the city. One way that being happened and one of the my concerns was a wanting to know how this could possibly be impact on here but fortunately, when I then I learned to just come back. So that was the situation. And so I learned. Around that time, I personally learned about that. At the end of December, followed through the news, as I had that one of the things that happened was, was, was that, you know, the World Health Organization declared it as a global health emergency, because it had now began to move from the focus of focus being in China, but that several cities were reporting. A similar trend, and that they called it a global health emergency and so I followed all of that. But I've also then realized through the news in South Africa that our minister of health, just at the beginning of much started talking the issue of clipart the repatriation of South Africans who were in. In China, and then started a conversation in the country, and not so long after he was talking about these issues. We saw that the health minister was in the International Airport which is Johannesburg International Airport, or a tomboy as we call it. It's known about preparedness to deal with the case infections and prevention of infections and what is being done in terms of ports of entries to ensure that personnel is mobile not. He's not infected. However, two or three days later on the fifth of March. An announcement was then made of the first reported case of one of one person who was part of a group of 10 people who had been in Italy and arrived early, that month. And it turned out a few days later as they changed the group that at least about seven of those who entered the country before me at the beginning of, of that month were were also caring, the infection. And then suddenly a wide spread of infections were happening. And in the, in the country, just around you know where we saw them rising up to bat 60 almost 60 people. 60 cases been reported. And over the entire period until more recently now in a prep. We've not had that's dead set just a kid and I think at the moment we only have nine people who have died as a result of the problems, problems presented by, by, by the by the epidemic

Unknown 8:05
of that nine people in Johannesburg are nine people throughout the country.

Unknown 8:10
When they are nine people and majority of whom are in one province kwazulu Natal province province, in which I'm in is called housing and translated the city of cold, all times. How Tim is a place of old, but it will be called as a city of call Johannesburg would be no less so the epicenter in this province is in Johannesburg, and particularly the North. Sub suburbs of Johannesburg. Among the affluent spaces where that is, doesn't mean that it does not exist just that more people seem to be in the affluent areas, and that is understandable because these are people who could have traveled the world. And they came with infections, and that

Unknown 9:08
sort of diet is now just begun.

Unknown 9:11
So it was it was it was. It's been because of that. But despite the fact that the, the Houghton province in which I belong, and I reside.

Unknown 9:25
Being in

Unknown 9:27
the province with the highest numbers of cases, be the highest number, number of dance in a different rural province. In which is called was Zulu metallic province.

Unknown 9:51
Did you talk a little bit.

Unknown 9:52
It is, yeah so of of the nine there's a spread in no Western Cape. It's a province, which is where Cape Town is. And I think there are about three deaths from that part. And there could have been two deaths in another province called West and West. It's called Northwest province Northwest province. Yes. So, and, and, and, of course, here could be up in the province where am I am residing there could be about two, if I'm not mistaken, of dads that have a kid.

Unknown 10:40
Wow, that is very helpful for perspective of what the country looks like, and especially what you look like. So I thank you for having those insights, because I know they weren't a part of our original set of questions so I appreciate those insights. But let's, let's begin talking a little bit about the questions you've shared with us that you are a Methodist pastor and African Methodist Episcopal Church there, but you also serve as the executive director of what it's like an NGO, could you talk a little bit about how the COVID-19 has affected your job, and maybe give some understanding or context around what your job looks like in both of those professions or both of those ways that you work.

Unknown 11:26
Let me just make sure not not necessarily executive director because one. Oh,

Unknown 11:31

Unknown 11:36
Well I simply

Unknown 11:43
don't that don't exist yet in

Unknown 11:46
life I haven't been prophetic

Unknown 11:50
where, as I said, Yes, I'm just an officer in a foundation. It's called the other Foundation, and I'm a pastor in the AMD chip, which is part of the methods framing them. The first thing, how one quote I have it has impacted on both roles, I play in the church I think the first thing that he did. One of the things I had to get informed as fast as possible about what this virus really means because I have a duty of communicating with the congregation. So as fast as I needed, despite the fact that in the news I kept hearing that they were saying, you know, who was saying stuff that I had which at that time never, ever had any relationship with what I'm doing as a pastor, it never had. And, and so one of the things that it, then had to do as soon as it came close demanded of me to learn about the disease. So that I communicate it. The second thing is, is it's, it obviously made me to begin to, you know, engage around what government leadership is all about. And then obviously, the whole ethical issues about having, You know, regulating things and, obviously, feel, how we touched on illogical understanding, which is the issue of nation state relations

Unknown 14:00
became an issue in a sense

Unknown 14:06
that, for instance, I did not. I do not have those types of things personally, but I've heard colleagues all over the country saying but their rights for people to freely associate to worship, cannot be tempered. You know people that's what people were arguing that freedom of religion and government cannot do that. On the one hand, but my issue was, I understood that government was doing this. In the interest of people in the interest of saving people from infections. I appreciate it, but that was my point of view and. However, that period in between what was for instance limited in peasant worship. And when which Firstly, I think it was around the middle of March, around the 15th of March when a state of disaster was was declared national state of disaster. Limited gatherings of people not more than 100, that when people have got that there must be social distancing. In order to be able to take cheap ajust out people who are in gatherings, their names, their sin names, their addresses, where they stay the identity document numbers, their contact details.

Unknown 16:09
That meant for me as a pastor.

Unknown 16:13
And now, it was basically it's unusual unusual to have people come in, either in worship, and suddenly what I have to be preoccupied with is to ensure that I keep a register of attendance, with those details. So, that's how it impacted because where she was no longer and then wishes to I have to even count how many people are in because the regulations are that no more than hundred people.

Unknown 16:49

Unknown 16:52
and that certainly the police monitoring about such gatherings. That was the first phase in the middle of March, when a state of a of disaster was declared. And so I was impacted in that way, in terms of my other week. And, obviously, well, it meant I, you know, where it was one of the things was closing the borders. Not allowing people to come into the country and those who were in the country were then allowed who were nation who belong to other nations were allowed to move out. At any given time so that was finding my, my, my width is such that, I have to relate with grantees, of the foundation in 12, other nation states, here in Southern Africa. And, which meant that therefore more of visual communication needed to happen no more traveling, that I could do that's how it has impacted on my work. And equally plans of events that I needed to host an event that big could no longer be hosted. Fortunately, there's been a thought. As soon as you know, things tend from the both the leadership and management of the foundation, about how to start doing work differently, and suspending, you know, physical meetings to further emphasize on, you know, virtual connections with with grantees, and in any other tasks that we needed to undertake. So, in a sense, and therefore, working remotely which is one of the things I'm not. Well, we're not that I'm used to working as I am traveling. Right. I would not have been saying that is working remote. For me, but working remotely means staying in the house and doing work. And let me tell you what that really means. It means stocking more food in the house, because I've been going to the refrigerator so many times than I am and I realized that working from home for me was, is a bit more expensive than if I went away, because if I went to work I know I put time to eat lunch, and. And when I'm at home. I see myself going to the refrigerator, so many times when I do on an ordinary day, and that's personally, how it has impacted on me I worry about my weight. I am the one other team, of course, in xiety.

Unknown 20:24
As a pasta in these just

Unknown 20:29
when there was on the 15th of March, there was a declaration of a state of of disaster a lot of emergency or disaster, which is not the same as state of emergency.

Unknown 20:44
Did you know contexts of the differences in that in South Africa, in case of

Unknown 20:50
disaster is something that can be declared by a minister of government. In this instance, it's administer or harbor to governance and traditional affairs, a state of emergency can only be declared by a president,

Unknown 21:13
and a state of emergency is

Unknown 21:19
already enshrined in our processes around it. enshrined in the Constitution. Why is the state of disaster, and is, um, sort of a. Yeah, it's an Act of Parliament, which, you know, will be about in the instances of disasters happening and how, you know, regulations will be developed to ensure that you respond to the disaster. And yes so at the moment, we asked him within that we

Unknown 21:58
say the state of disaster is the first level that provinces and then the state of emergency would affect the entire country assembly. President shape

Unknown 22:09
disaster would affect the entire nation, because it was declared as a nation state of disaster,

Unknown 22:16
national, state of disaster state of America was

Unknown 22:19
led, it was declared by a minister of government. Okay. Okay. Although announced by the President. Okay, is within dealt with by every minister in terms of you, as I said, ensuring that gatherings when we have more than 100 people. And, and that was the first phase of the of the of the Declaration, you know we could still gather

Unknown 22:53
until a week before. This week,

Unknown 23:00
two weeks before this week, which was early. More early, at the end of March. The President then upgraded on on the state of disaster, not state of emergency would have meant shutting down on the state of disaster is what we call no long now.

Unknown 23:25
And it's, it's Sam.

Unknown 23:30
It's a lockdown in distance was now, when the borders with totally shot.

Unknown 23:39
Storms closed.

Unknown 23:43
No coloring allowed, except in the instance of coloring because we there in people limitations were set, no more than 50 people. And as they pass them. I've learned because I had to have a a funeral service conducted, just last week.

Unknown 24:10
Last week, back in a funeral service.

Unknown 24:13
Yes. And, and I am the first accountable person, as a pastor. Concerning the coddling of the family and whoever is there. The save is, I've got to know where it is occurring. Is it meeting certain standards, I have to say all of those standards. I have to DePaul a depose a, an Africa. That actually states that I am aware, or not aware of the reasons why this is passed on, as well as it because I'm not aware, and therefore I don't know, but one of the questions would be, I am aware that it is as a result of the COVID-19. If I'm aware of that. Then, I need to be, you know, say all sorts of things. It's me who has to present a touch on my affidavit that I suppose barrier, I mean the death certificate

Unknown 25:27
that declares the death of that person.

Unknown 25:32
And in that, in that Africa meet, I must also, it requires me to the extent to which I've engaged with the believed family in terms of preparation for their death. And, you know, I come into an agreement with the family that they cannot be more than 50 people,

Unknown 25:57
I think, zero

Unknown 25:58
by zero is

Unknown 26:01
normal in your cultural context.

Unknown 26:03
It is not normal.

Unknown 26:06
It simply means that we have gotten land to say thank you for sharing your concerns. But if the family does not count you as a person who should be there when the person is buried.

Unknown 26:25

Unknown 26:28
it's a something very difficult for families to manage. Because in our cultural context, should the deaf. Hum around people who know the disease, or know. It did he would be there to provide support. And basically, they are massive

Unknown 26:53
funerals are massive things.

Unknown 26:57
They would crowd into the sanctuary. And you'll still find people around the vicinity of the mean of the central, you know, waiting to accompany the president, ultimately in the believed to be symmetric. And this has basically the practice has been stopped the practice has also in terms of our cultural context, bonds are based in is passed on, you know, depending on when in a week the President has passed on him, fairly often if a president passed away on, say about thursday friday it eventually means the person will be most likely buried the following weekend and mostly Saturdays are days in which people do bury their deceased. But what has now happened is that the regulations are requiring that people should be at least buried within three days. And what that also means, if people are buried within three days. It means a.

Unknown 28:10

Unknown 28:12
Yeah, within.

Unknown 28:15
Once a person dies, one of the things is the home or place of the deceased would be flooded by people showing concern. That's what would happen under normal circumstances. But this because it has limitations of when people should come and practice the what I saw last week was the family did not allow people to step inside the house. So they kept him on inside the yard of the house.

Unknown 28:53
They gathered with them there and they spoke.

Unknown 28:59
And it was short visitations than normal. So he's people who just come stop express their solidarity with the believed and have to leave, even as they come in a register of who stepped into the art needed to be kept, which is something. So unfamiliar with people. So, that so basically throughout that process of three days or so, one of my, I needed to be with their family, so that when I do pose my Africa. Everything has been agreed between me and affiliate, but there are advantages of what is in terms of some shifts that have happened since. One of the biggest problems as Africa. Over time has become it has been the how expensive funerals installed with the shortening of days of mourning before the person is

Unknown 30:10
buried or cremated.

Unknown 30:14
You know before it used to be, there's been a spending of money around just those days waiting for the day of food and cooking for people making baking cakes, to see people, when they come So, so that it became the burden of the daily family to cater for people who keep coming in and out. Relatives would come in stay around

Unknown 30:50
for even on the day of the food a lot of the food that's been eaten made in millions. In fact, it's, it's the family, that's responsible to almost give people meals that would include meat. And sometimes choices, meat, chicken, Fish is not a very common thing around here in terms of culture. Certainly, he eat. You know cow meat and chicken would be the most popular, they would have actually slaughtered. A car. A day before the food era, and is overnight being prepared for the funeral and people come into Perry would stop by and and eat. So what has now happened as a result of the advent of regulations to prevent infections. Is that families no longer spend as much or spend for themselves. Those who are believed and we're staying there until three days when they. This is this Terry doctrine ated. And on the day, it's only 50, the regulations basically I say, 50 people in a safe place for the front end until, whether the person is buried or cremated. 50 people. And after that, The rest should dismiss, so only the family would then go back to the house. And, and the meals that are prepared would have been prepared by the family for the family. So in a sense, the cost that accompanied

Unknown 32:46
burial of the deceased.

Unknown 32:50
In essence, whether it should have been reduced. That's the advantage. I've been something that's new, that comes with, with this and I've, I've heard people say they would even prefer to certainly go this way than than any other way.

Unknown 33:09
Oh, at some hearing you say that people are leaning into this, this new normal in a way that is somewhat, a great gratitude or grateful to be maybe not having to spend as much, but are people, other any Have you heard anything about people displeased or upset about this new way of life, particularly around funerals. In the wake of COVID-19.

Unknown 33:37
Um, I think. Yes, I've heard a whole lot of people who, who were complaining about the situation.

Unknown 33:50

Unknown 33:53
Because part of the regulations are I mean people who are here in joining us are not originally people from here. They are people from other provinces came here because of work opportunities. And, or even people who have now I've stayed. So long. In this ebonite problems I stay in still keep strong relationships with the rural places in other provinces from which they originally come from. So, during death, what then happens is the regulation is. People have been stopped from moving between provinces. And unless it is essential for people to move across provinces. And so at the beginning, the police were very strict. When they say no after a death of a relative's in the other, they would say no. If you are lucky they would have said yes. Even government became embarrassed by that because a whole lot of people could not be given an opportunity to mourn, very close people. And they've had to adjust the regulations to give people an opportunity to go mourn in bury their beloved, because they are very close, either because their parents or its parents burying their own children or his siblings having to bury each other, or even close friends and so all of that they've helped to relax. The movement of people on the basis of the essence of their tablet, especially around funerals. And so that it had to be changed however not changing the maximum, people still 50 whether you drove traveled a long distance that has been. I mean, another way in which this has affected me as a pastor, for instance. Just, just across the personal age where I am currently. And I see there's a church member whose mother passed away, buried yesterday. All I could do, is Pastor over telephonically. And what is said, is the mother stays in another province. So, the family has traveled, they unfortunately because there's been a real realization of regulations based on the closeness between the deceased, and, and, and believed they got it, they got it. They got it without the condition to be able to travel because there are roadblocks between provinces. And all I can do is just keep, you know, normally I would accompany must. And this is not just a member in this instance, is a member who's my neighbor. And many times I would have had to be two days ago as a foreigner to be with this member, because this member who, by becoming my neighbor takes care of almost my, my security my welfare, one does because of close proximity. And, and, and coffee basically is denying me the right to be a company, or to my neighbor, but also congregant of my denomination,

Unknown 37:51
my congregation.

Unknown 37:54
I passed all agreed with you because of the notion of a congregant mother passing, it's very hard, but then with the double layer of a congregant who's a neighbor as you said, I am certain weighs heavily upon you and grief. And so, this is unrelated to the oral history so my pastoral heart goes out to you. But let us shift, perhaps just a moment and talk about your own household. You've mentioned your neighbor, across the way from you, but in your own household in the day to day activities of how you you operate and others in the hall with you they operate. What does that look like for you.

Unknown 38:48
Currently I'm just being with one of my children. In the past age. My other children all over. But I think this time, our communication is much deeper

Unknown 39:09
than it used to be

Unknown 39:14
caring more, but from a distance. It doesn't mean that I cannot take chances of traveling go and see them where they are. It's just, I want to be a law abiding citizen just like I want them to be. So that there is no movement along the roads and then impacting on each other. But I think that, in what is now happened is that, I think our communication is now more often than it used to be before, but right inside the house with a one child I stayed with now.

Unknown 40:06

Unknown 40:08
I don't know about him, but what my son beings, but it has been interesting that the things I took for granted, are suddenly things. We have serious conversations about small things about

Unknown 40:33
chosen of kittens how we

Unknown 40:35
continue these

Unknown 40:38
conversations about health issues,

Unknown 40:44
listening to him about his concerns because he's still in a, in a high school. And the 12th grade. He's frustration about the fact that by now, On Thursday last week. No no no can be last last few days the past. This past Thursday, the State President is announced the extension of the lockdown by two weeks, this coming week is supposed to have been there. 21 days, coming to an end. On Friday next week. But now it's been extended until the 30th of April. He's serious concern is,

Unknown 41:41
He's not going to go to school again.

Unknown 41:45
He's not feeling very excited about what you know programs that they are providing, they don't. And he feels like these, these teachers are not as good as his teacher. He, he argues, about how these TV led lectures or lessons that he's getting out those teachers basically don't don't match his teaching the information they give is already an information he knows, and even how that information. He knows they actually. He knows it much better than they teach on TV. I mean I went on several occasions. And, you know, remember the show preachers you know used to say stop arguing with your lecture series, the lecturer knows a little better than you. That's why they put that test in there to teach you. My son, if you struggle with that. Any other teacher is no better than his teacher and missing to be with the teacher. Because I think there's a sense of intimacy, when they are in class, they are used to this teacher that not only intimacy but interaction. And that teacher on TV, cannot be interrupted.

Unknown 43:25
Ask questions.

Unknown 43:28
And so, that's the extent to which, you know, my, my relationship with him, you have to deal with about trying to have him now.

Unknown 43:43
Level beyond what the teacher taught

Unknown 43:47
to the next Chuck does have the textbook. That seems to be a big problem because not even me tell the story, like the teacher would tell this so that those are the kinds of things that you have to see with love, in the house together.

Unknown 44:13
So you asked about pastoring in the wake of COVID-19 you talked about parenting and the COVID-19. Anything else you'd love to share about that parenting role, and being in the same household with one child. And you said, other children are in various places. The communication can you talk a little bit about the kinds of communication the methods of communication.

Unknown 44:40
When no I'm not a teacher. It's just that all I know, I know how to interact with books. And I think one of the things, because I am where I am. And now I'm not I don't have methodology of teaching and all of that, perhaps, that's what makes it difficult for me because I'm connected as a parent and I want him to lead this thing. I know what he is reading. But I want him to know it, so I keep retelling it. It doesn't look like my methodology wakes. And, and, and I think one of the difficult things is the young man Billings believes more in his teacher. And you have, I think you have to prove yourself exceptionally well, to really do with like how the teacher at school, does it. But that's about education but as I said also just about.

Unknown 45:52
You know how setting things attached in the house.

Unknown 46:03
That's. I mean taking for granted. The entire day he would just do stuff when I'm not there I'm at work. And when he comes into the house from school, you know, you'd leave. And, and, and, and, and, perhaps portrayed himself was realizing that a matter of throne distinct day and all that, and no date is coming back so let me get the thing, but now there's no longer any time for him to do a mess and leave it like that. It's. He's got to do it at once. If he's done something correct it immediately can't leave it stay to stay for me because I'm here. And so, my collecting every now and then, but I told you this must not be like this it should be that way. And I think, I mean I saw him. Sometimes he throws in yesterday I had a conversation with him and asking him like you like talking alone, because he likes talking alone.

Unknown 47:06
Oh, my.

Unknown 47:08
And this is where there's some things I feel like I'm talking to somebody. Because what I want to see. I don't think anybody else. Even you are willing to hear from me, I, I thought it's a response to just having to spend for instance just the last week, in which I've been mean No, he's been, I've been on this case about certain things. And I think that he's his reaction that says, Well, let me see what I went to see, to this other object or person, I see that's what he told me I do see somebody I think I'm talking to them, and I tried to say no tell me how frustrated you are about us being locked down in the house. And, you know, seven things out when I went to sleep without him having told me about it. Now he has another being lucky. I don't like TV. I like radio. The reason why I like radio is because radio uses my ears. Not necessarily my head my eyes, and the totality of my body. The problem with TV. Is it means the totality of your body should focus on the television. And while the disputes are the lockdown is a result of coffee. It is me having the radio on most of the times,

Unknown 48:54
while I'm doing something else.

Unknown 48:58
And when he likes TV. He wants to go sit there and the argument will be because also I want to watch the lessons. And of course, it brings out of the lessons for any other sort of being on TV. And that is a big claim that we have in the house, and I think it's part of his response over these last days of starting to talk to himself as been annoyance of the fact that he no longer has time to watch. He does not have time to watch TV as freely as you would like to do, if I was at work. It would come at a certain time, then he would be free to watch TV. So he's frustrated himself, about the fact that we are locked in here. He does need to have the time. He's enjoyed being at school with his teachers as well as his classmates and schoolmates. And so unfortunately COVID has put us together. I don't know what this is going to do over until the end of the month when things get get relaxed.

Unknown 50:20
I'm curious, um, you you mentioned being locked in the house with this one child. If, if one were to take a look outside of the window of your home right now, or on a regular Kind of day to day basis, what would things look like outside, would there be people in if there would be, are there now not people. Could you give us a sense of how the day to day activity outside of your home has changed in the wake of COVID-19.

Unknown 50:50
When the, the regulations were passed, and the encouragement of people staying home happened in a context socio economic context, that is very difficult for the majority of the people that are facing it. It happened at any time to watch the end of the month when many people.

Unknown 51:17
Many people are firstly unemployed.

Unknown 51:23
I just forget what are the statistics, but we have a very high, our statistics in terms of unemployment in the country and unemployment particularly impacting on women, and the youth is is so high.

Unknown 51:46
It's about 27% of the population is unemployed.

Unknown 51:53
Right before COVID-19,

Unknown 51:55
whether it has been the problem of South Africa, three problems in South Africa is a problem of poverty. Problem of unemployment. And it is a problem of disease. You know, we, South Africa is a country with the highest number of people living with HIV

Unknown 52:19
in the world.

Unknown 52:26
TB is one of the problem and recently

Unknown 52:31
in no non communicating communicable diseases have suddenly also gained ascendance. So that's generally the problem. So when you call it comes one of the, although there is no evidence according to what I'm hearing. Nobody knows what this is going to be for competence on Africa. Because TB is a respiratory disease, and we know that if you have these non communicable diseases such as blood pressure, diabetes and all of that. Then they say that they get accentuated by, you know infection, coughing infection. I forgot the name by the way I must keep on saying COVID-19 infections around a virus, we see, they see the disease with a sending this one it's complete 1990 must always be part of it. And so that's that's the that's the context, socio economic context around which comes to finds us already dealing with the three problems of poverty of unemployment and of disease. And I think that there are more than that because there's also another problem of gender based

Unknown 54:02

Unknown 54:07
I think we remember one of the things is we, we, one of the countries in which sexual gender, sexual and gender based violence is is hot. And, of course, women being on the receiving end and children of the violence. That's perpetrated by, by men

Unknown 54:39
of women is very high in this country.

Unknown 54:44
So even when you deal with the issue of poverty, you, you, talking about the majority of people impacted impoverished being women being children. And so, essentially, that's before the advent of COVID-19. We will already caught up with these issues. Have it comes COVID-19 comes, then you will have a country, South Africa which simultaneously, almost simultaneously. Having, its ratings low like Moody's, they put us into a junk status. And all the rating. You know companies or institutions have basically rated us, lower, because it also comes in the context in which just over three two. I mean, for about seven years, we've had a government that base, under which corruption, was the central issue. They came was the doors for corruption seem to have been wide open because you had a State President cause for a period of seven years trying to forge his own issues about, you know, corrupt activities related to to him. And so, almost. Guys, it's been a bad seven years, we've just had one and a half year or in attempt to try and leave, who we were struggling to help as a country, current president and not because he caught the majority votes, or the majority convincing majority votes from his own party. Because in the party with those people, you know the African National Congress is, which has been the governing party, since 1994. The first democratic elections. Currently, the party has been divided. In the past, in the seven years between those who are putting the president of the party who was the president of the country. And so even when he thought he was the vice president, alongside that president. He promised to be the president, we knew him having negotiated being the leader of the negotiations, around a new constitution in our country. He became a businessman, they after during Mandela. Big his time. So

Unknown 58:10
he's now at the helm of the state.

Unknown 58:15
And being a, they have more fees political party but without a convincing win between human and the contest, the one who was contesting the position so still his powers within the party. I shake the because he does not have an overwhelming support, and therefore how he governs will always be informed by by those dynamics. However, I think. During the pillar of coverage. He's attempting to be the statesman, we, we think you should be negotiating his way in such a way that, you know, sectors of society would support you. But unfortunately, remember the three, if not four problems we've encountered before coffee it

Unknown 59:10
still exists in this moment.

Unknown 59:13
And so one of the things in terms of the question I'm sorry I take took so long to give this background. I'm just watching, there's a shopping center from across where I'm seated with the shopping center the from God shopping center. Immediately after the regulations were passed one of the things that they needed to do in the country was to provide social cleanse for senior citizens for people with disabilities, and even grants, which are meant to support children.

Unknown 59:55
And these

Unknown 59:58
big numbers of people. Millions of people just in the first two days, it was government debt to even bring the days into much. At the end of March normally they get these grants, at the beginning of the month, within the first six days, people receive their claims from social claims from government, but because of the, of kovat, they were brought into the last days of much. And one of the things they things that they government had to accede to. They could not monitor that people have locked themselves in their into their houses, because they've had to allow people to go and receive this class. They've had to relax the regulations. Because when the regulations were made public transport and in this instance public transport in South Africa does not necessarily mean public transport, because we need buses that take people from place to place, are basically owned by individuals so it's private rather than public but if you say public transport you mean mini buses, because they are the ones that are used by far, the majority of the citizens of this country. So they were to read release something and suddenly the whole of last week. When was the sixth of April, and five days ago, the whole of last week, the whole of last week. They had to allow taxis to run through the entire Bay between four o'clock in the morning and 10 o'clock. Eight o'clock at night. at 10 o'clock at night when initially the regulations were saying that the Texas minibus taxis will operate between five o'clock and nine o'clock in the morning, as well as four o'clock and eight o'clock in the evening. So what is then happened so that in between these periods, there would not be any movement everybody is expected to be home and

Unknown 1:02:37
come again.

Unknown 1:02:39
So it's a curfew of so

Unknown 1:02:41
it's a curfew of sorts, but they would not say it's a few percent. But they were to actually, the whole of last week. They have to abandon that, because a week before last was when the senior people know, they had to realize if they say that taxes must operate within those periods in a day. There are senior people who have to go and get their grant. They entirely depend on being in a takes in a minute plastics, to move from their homes, to be able to get their climate and be able to go and buy the food they need in order to go back home. And so you cannot limit it that they must wake up in the morning because what happened the week before last is that people then went to all buy food, because one of the things that the regulations would say it is essential for you to buy food. So you can travel to the, and then people would go into shopping malls, were in the shopping malls, the only shops that would be allowed only grocery shops and pharmacies, chemists, therefore for medication. And so all the other other shops were basically in order to shut down.

Unknown 1:04:15

Unknown 1:04:17
people would go, and perhaps, go to the shops and when they get into the shops, the shops have a responsibility to ensure that the there is personal hygiene, that, you know, is, is applied, which means everybody needs to get a sanitizer on their hands, they will keep their surfaces sanitized, but also another thing is keep a social distancing so suddenly in supermarkets where we used to just walk in, you no longer walk in, you'll find queues of people, because it will, the number of people inside the store. It has to be such that, it's not claimed. There is also on the TEALS a distancing of people physical distance of people. And all of that so even in the shops, use in the stores, you still have to deal with that situation. And at the same time you have to deal with the transport you dependent on which the minibus takes. We only operate until nine o'clock. And you may have come in there, very early at eight o'clock because normally shops, would open such stores supermarkets would would be open. Most of the times around nine o'clock, and you come in there at the time you're coming It's already the time when the Texas can no longer. Add people so you finished by your crew service, you have to stay for the entire day waiting for four o'clock when the minibus taxis have to go can pick up people to take them back into their places of a boat. And so these were the dynamics and the whole of last week they had to relax that, but it was only, up until Friday. So, the current arrangement is that they are not allowed to operate entirely open to four o'clock in the morning until nine o'clock, and four o'clock, until eight o'clock, and by grace, until nine o'clock. So no ticks, you must be picking up people, even the minibus Texas ought to take only load up to 70% of their capacity with social distancing within the minibus

Unknown 1:06:55
being affected,

Unknown 1:06:57
which means. Still,

Unknown 1:07:02
the people would wait for minibus taxis. Because, you know, that would be that affects them in terms of their own movement, up and down. Life let me say right now is I. Every day I have seen people walking around. I have this morning just decided I'm going to walk Mexican told my son. Not today I mean, I'm just taking a walk, I mean it was not been. It was about 20 minutes walk I walked over there to the center. I didn't get inside I just walked to just see what's happening because I'm seeing it from a distance.

Unknown 1:07:46
And so people.

Unknown 1:07:50
Seemingly move around because the first on the first thing is, I went there and I saw that but I saw something else I didn't know. By walking, just today. I've always seen people just next to the churchyard standing and I'm on my on my gadgets. I do see that there is on my Wi Fi connections there's upload, it's free.

Unknown 1:08:24
Wi Fi access.

Unknown 1:08:28
I can have it right here just register for it, or app note down yeah I've not connected on it, but I saw I always saw people crowding around here, and you know, they I knew why people are there because they want access to free Wi Fi. Hmm, and so why I see people. I think people want well for them it's for. It's what is essential. And I think today, a blend. People may not have the money to buy the data they need in order to operate their phones. And since there's free Wi Fi over just here. I saw them crowding but I saw them, even though they were crowding they will not like tight. Connect with standing within distances, they still talk to each other about what they are seeing when they are graduates and all of that, or whatever communication they engage with. And clearly, the issue of access to internet connection here, his impacted on them. And the reason why they are not honoring staying in their, in their homes is because they need to communicate is made them step out of their homes to go to spaces where they can be able to access the information. I've read. I've read also about one of the things that I've read an article for me, I found very edifying. The COVID is based COVID-19 seems to be keeping problems and people seem to be having intelligence of making a difference about how they can protect themselves whilst it's more the self social distancing is more about individuals. And to some extent it impacts on the family. Of course it has a minister who seems to be giving it a wrong perspective, because he's the Minister of police, and for him is like celebrating police to enforce the regulations. And one of the things that he's been saying more recently, is a social distancing must be maintained, even like at night, in the middle of the night. Keep the distance. And you say, What do you say about that when people are a family's husband and wife they stay together. And you want to say no, he never even made any distinction about what he really means because if you say social distancing is going to happen. It's actually the way somehow we confusing. Social distancing, it impacts on families, as you want to say. And we know we are lying. Because if a husband and a wife stays in the same house. They are going to stay until they share that date. Unless, of course, one is known to have a case where they self, I mean self isolation, in instances that I know of a leader, one of the leaders who's done that, until he was declared to have recovered. And you see, he still owes back with his wife to do things together. But that for a minister, I think it was irresponsible of you doing that. So in this community what they think. In this rural community they base that I see evenings being together. We. Up to now, do not have any in case. What we're going to stay together. We're going to relate with each of you, allowing freedom of movement around here. Fortunately, the police don't come to that village was a rural area. So, this education about COVID-19, that's taking place. The only problem began when

Unknown 1:12:47
children who are in evon areas.

Unknown 1:12:52
Wanted to then come and visit for old fighting and all of home like disrupted that community. Because for them social distancing was not an issue they were living their normal lives. They getting education about it and so there was no social distancing that they needed to have, because they've been here all this time. And there's never been any personal pocket to have in a case

Unknown 1:13:21
of COVID-19,

Unknown 1:13:24
but the only threat now has been when they are relatives in urban areas, force themselves into that rural community. So, that so social distancing is is a problem. It's, it's intended. It has a good intention. But it's operating within a certain social context, it's hard to get the people need to meet their, their essentials, be able to get what is essential for them, because that gets interpreted as if they are defining when they keep walking around when they go out there, like I see right now there's a gentleman was just walked to stand next to the fence about the change there. I didn't know why people are standing there, I thought that's just groups of name, because often the and then. And I only realized now, it's because they want access to Wi Fi in order to communicate.

Unknown 1:14:29
So, I wish I could stay all day and do this. Oral history interview, but I'm sensitive that we've only asked you for an hour and a half and we've actually exceeded that by about 10 minutes now. And so I want to thank you so much for this interview, several questions that I wanted to ask it there's just not time for

Unknown 1:14:54
a lot of time, giving you answers.

Unknown 1:14:57
No, this is, I have completely enjoyed listening to you so at night at all you've, you've taken the time that you needed and I hope that this is, I know that this will be shared with our classmates with our with our professor, and they will be intrigued by this history this interview, but I know, again we expected a shorter ending of a while ago but if Emily. If you, if you are okay. Reverend Klaus across if we can have addition but just a couple of follow up questions from Emily. Do you have time.

Unknown 1:15:39
Did you freeze.

Unknown 1:15:42
That's what I was thinking, because that they may limit the time that the signal

Unknown 1:15:48
yeah trapped

Unknown 1:15:50
there to an hour, so I do think he's frozen. Yeah. Yeah, I think he's frozen. And I don't know that he'll be able to come back. Yeah,

Unknown 1:16:06
that's okay it was wonderful interview.

Unknown 1:16:11
Yeah. So I'll turn the recording off well I'll say this for the recording benefit. What I know of South Africa, is that they have metered Wi Fi. And so sometimes they will only permit, up to an hour on a certain device to receive that metered WiFi, and then they'll have to reset for another hour. I don't know that this is true for Ivan class but I imagine, since he froze at just about our our time on that that's what happened. So, for the recording purposes, again, we have interviewed Reverend to boho clouds class is back.

Unknown 1:16:55

Unknown 1:17:02
that's so wonderful that you're back, I won't take time talking about the meter of the Wi Fi. In just a few more minutes though. Emily would like to ask a few follow up questions. Okay.

Unknown 1:17:15
So one question that I had is, I think you're describing a really close knit community that you live in, where people support each other there are a lot of bonds between community members and I'm wondering if the social distancing is also kind of harming potentially some of those bonds with for people to support each other either emotionally or with actual, physical support of their basic needs. Is that the case.

Unknown 1:17:52

Unknown 1:17:54
one would say yes. At the beginning of social, the concept of social distancing, I think, would have been a it was a concern. There's been a concern. However, I think there are coping mechanisms in terms of understanding what this social distancing and I think the problem has been how the presentation, calling it social distancing was a problem. And people have come to accept that there is what you can call physical distancing is what was intended by social distancing because we appealed just general ideas Africans we appealed in such a way that we do relate with each other. So to say social distancing would become a problem and so people have come to accept what they call physical distancing so that you do not get infected, or you do not infect others. But that's. Yes, because otherwise, it affects what we call you know social solidarity or solidarity by itself as something that's call in the values of community among particularly black people. African people Africans would would would do solidarity with each other. And that's why, in foreigner hours they would still. For instance, appreciate that this time for this moment, because of the regulations, even though they get irritated, they still accept, because they understand the pause, of why they is now they are now limitations of interactions, and also interacting by distancing by putting a distance between people, but still be able to communicate. And, of course, one of the things is this usage of technology as a way of communication. By the way, one of the things in Africa that's very common is people now have cell phones, and they do have smartphones. However, despite the fact that they have smartphones, even though they may not necessarily be iPhone and all of that. But whatever plan they have what it requires of them in the context of poverty, unemployment, requires that they need to have data to access information. And that's the reason why I'm seeing right now I see people moving outside. Going to that sport, I never took serious. All this time, because they want to continue to associate use the technology to keep in touch. So that's, that's that has been Of course, one of the things COVID-19 has done. It has helped so many of us. Well, I've always preached and whenever I preached. I've always had it recorded. What's up has been the tool through which Mike someone's have been disseminated to people. And so their social media platforms. I mean with Good Friday being yesterday, having been yesterday, collaborative work that has since happened because we did not have congregations at all, such as centuries have been shut down. Those have been shut down so there's not been activities in the churches and so we have seen people. I'm trying to write an article reflecting about that. We've seen people suddenly collaborate as pastors, even lay people collaborate in recording messages through video or voice messages, which have been distributed I mean it was just a wonderful Good Friday yesterday. Because I think I spent the entire day. Either listening, or even viewing messages that people have been circulating on the seven seasons of Christ on on the cross, in a sense, I've had ordinary people say to me, we've never been so blessed. Even though we have been kept apart from each other, because there's been just a flood of music in worship, there's been such a flood of preachment prelab lot of people training sharing trailers through social media.

Unknown 1:22:56
But that is at the cost,

Unknown 1:22:59
because the cost of having data on your phone is very high, still very high here in South Africa.

Unknown 1:23:07
Yeah, that's amazing. Um, I also wondered, you mentioned briefly that the government's credit rating the Moody's rating was lowered, does that impact the government's ability to help out those who are most in need of it, like women unemployed people, seniors.

Unknown 1:23:31
Currently the government is said. But, yes, cutting the ratings to a child status means so much in terms of government being able to borrow money in order to meet programs to do programs that will will be of course life saving for people. However, government is also said at the moment, they will they will use every resource that is especially around COVID-19, to ensure that people are tested to ensure that services are provided. Life is saying, especially the health systems cell system being able to respond. Just as engaging socially to, you know, flattening the curve, not dependent is is very dependent on getting social interactions education, you know, flighting them on TV and all of that. So government at the moment says, We will do, even though at the moment, we have been rated. Now, by, by these rating agencies. So at the moment is not the other thread, there's been a discussion about going to the World Bank and IMF. And there's been a backlash. On the other hand, because of the history on these institutions in terms of how they have treated, developing countries, the structural adjustment programs they impose. And there are the. There are people who are saying not now. We actually inside the country have resources. That should enable us to be able to do what we need to do and we can go as a last resort to so the Minister of Finance is getting a backlash around the idea of IMF suddenly becoming the top in the country. So business is having so much trillions that it is gathered over, and has not been used. And so these trillions of rands South African brains are now being summoned to come into the play. In and, and the fact that they are pension funds in this country that are landing into billions of friends that can be an alternative to immediately going to institutions that are going to impose structural adjustment in the country. And so that's that's the discussion that's happening at the moment it doesn't that thing being it's just at a political level opposition to ideas and create and bringing alternative ideas, instead of the dominant ideas that are seemingly been pushed. But, obviously because we need to get some things going into parliament and other forums where people are not yet meeting as normal as they would meet.

Unknown 1:27:15
By the way, we have.

Unknown 1:27:18
Yeah, we had a situation right now, a minister has been repudiated by the by the president for not respecting that lockdown went out to have a visit to a friend when they should not have done that. And they took a picture, it was on social media. And the friend is also a member of parliament. And the minister is a woman. The friend who hosted the minister, and her husband is also is a member of parliament. And yet parliament has not acted on the men, which then raises the entire agenda. Power issues that society has been harsh on women, because she has been censured, and is on special leave for two months, one of which she will not be paid salary. And yet they are men. A, who is a member of parliament parliament has not rained on him. He's not been censured. And so basically what comedy has also done is raise the entire gender inequality gender stereotype issues. And in the very first days. What has happened I told you, one of the problems also Africa is gender, sexual and gender based violence. When the Minister of police have reported that just in a short space of time, since these regulations were brought over 87,000 cases were reported to police.

Unknown 1:29:18
Once families are locked together.

Unknown 1:29:24
Then suddenly these women now are victimized within families so there's been an accentuating of gender based violence. You know, 87,000 cases being reported countrywide because men and women were locked inside, inside their homes, and we met, getting children got beaten, especially care child care children, then those reports were so what COVID-19 has done is exposing the West, just as it also had had helped also expose the good in terms of knowing that people really need access to information. It's good to know that.

Unknown 1:30:22
Yeah, so

Unknown 1:30:25
that's that's the extension which I am not sure whether I know I take too long to answer please. But, pardon me.

Unknown 1:30:33
No need to apologize. No. Yeah.

Unknown 1:30:40
Very grateful, have any additional follow up question. No, no, I just wanted to say thank you so much for having class it's been incredible to hear your thoughts you've been so articulate and thoughtful and compassionate it's really wonderful.

Unknown 1:31:00
You're welcome.

Unknown 1:31:02
And I thank you, Emily for being so articulate with your questions as well as your follow up. And so rather than class, as always, we're grateful for the time that we can spend in conversation. The waters separate us that technology has gratefully given us once again an opportunity to speak. I thank you for mentioning the self isolation, and you talked about social distancing. The question that I did not get to raise was about this notion of flattening the curve. And so if you think you have a short response to ways that Glassman brokerages come to life as an idea in the has or has not in South Africa. That might be something to end us on.

Unknown 1:31:49
Yeah, so So, yeah, the flattening of the curve, I think. Currently the analysis is the lockdown has helped. Although we keep on getting cases of infections, being reported,

Unknown 1:32:11

Unknown 1:32:13
it could have been worse.

Unknown 1:32:17
If there wasn't this physical distancing that has been perpetuated or like being spoken on, you'd have been worse if people really just as free in walking because currently people are even though they walk the outside and all of that, but they are doing that with a sense of understanding that they cannot just freely move around. Because of infection and so that sense in that despite the socio economic and environmental challenges that people skill, in a way, try to keep this distance between each job. That, in a way, has helped because if you imagine these social economy dynamics, if they if if they if COVID-19 was just came in bound us not talking about this distance issues. It would have just been a buy now. A more. It is just a random book, we don't know at the moment. On the other hand, because it's still early. But then, the numbers that would have been imagined to be to be at this moment are far less than, then they would have been a Dun, dun, we can anticipate it, we've we basically are doing big not dead, but good or better. Yeah, when you compare globally. To the extent that the crafts I've seen personally through information I get is does show that there is some flattening going on in South Africa. And I think it is as a result of this time, a government that has played seventh leadership responsibility in government, the President would declare a state of disaster. And then galvanize leaders in all sectors to come in support. This and stand with them as they continue to speak to their own constituencies, to the extent that even though there's been a debate among churches, about state churches relations, and others were saying no, we will go on, we will have a we will just to make sure that social distancing as they want us to do, but we'll find other ways of creating more opportunities for people to worship and all of that, despite all the debates that it has raised the fact that major churches in the country. Immediately I mean if there's one denomination with 3 million people, this particular weekend would have got that they made a choice to, to, to stop to actually ask people not to come.

Unknown 1:35:41
Because you know what that would have meant

Unknown 1:35:45
that would have meant infections, we just go.

Unknown 1:35:50
And these are people who are not only coming from South Africa, these 3 million people would have covered for this Easter. It would have been people coming from other countries, here in Southern Africa. And they would come here and carry infections, take them into their countries. The fact that this government was able to negotiate. to keep in close contact, and I'm in the State President has done that before he declared, or he declared the state of the nature of the of disaster. He invited all sectors, leader leaders of all sectors including of churches. And after he had things that now been running in terms of government, rolling out the lockdown processes. He has taken personnel responsibility to go to lead us. You know, like he, in the past, just in this week. He has visited this change leader who commands support of more than 3 million gathering over a weekend, such as this weekend. And it took time to be with the leader. And so, that type of leadership governmentally, you know leadership was has been very useful in terms of people. Understanding they may be angry.

Unknown 1:37:23
On the one hand, but they are still.

Unknown 1:37:27
They, they know that this government is interested in decieved. They wish that Indians could be relaxed, such as boost, mate. Because in this period, no selling of alcohol and no movement with alcohol. Love Rica, there is no now which has been extended until the end of April. Oh, it is frustrating a whole lot of people. And yeah, but on the other hand they understand.

Unknown 1:38:04

Unknown 1:38:06
In some instances, has come out in such a way that people have broken into drugstores as you call them where alcohol is sold. They are breaking into those stores to try and get themselves some alcohol. I mean, that's the levels of addictions to alcohol and. And so to the extent that people are getting criminal. But you've opened up the whole box is an attempt. I mean, I, I, from with all of these negative things on the one hand happening. There is a sense of people also knowing that they have a duty to avoid and prevent being infected. That's a majority of people in the contracting whose mindset is stop infections or delay them because at least the doctors have said, it doesn't mean you will not, then they've also estimated 60% will be infected. In just a province right in the middle, one of the doctors, who's a political leader of the Department of the member of executive in the, in the province, said about estimated 60% will be infected, but being infected does not mean you will die. It just simply means you will be infected. And instead of clogging the system and the 60% being infected at once, then the system is going to be blocked. And it means failure once the system is failed is, is failed because of clogging, then you can help people, there'll be death. So the flattening of the curve has been trying to ensure that all of the people who are infected, and currently in South Africa, the number of people who are infected here in South Africa has just gone above 2000. Generally, for the entire pro for the entire country. We just over 2000 people who have who are worried but what confirmed his case is COVID-19 cases. and we've, we've, we've only. As I told, as I said, the number of deaths are still very low. And the number of people who are recovering. It's about 410

Unknown 1:41:07
persons precedence. And the reason has been explained

Unknown 1:41:12
in South Africa, you, you, you have to have to be.

Unknown 1:41:18
It has to be confirmed twice that you have a card.

Unknown 1:41:23
So you have the first, they can. There are some people who respond. Upon infection. And once they identify that they've gone document treatment they respond fairly fast. And so they'll be kept for 14 days to, you know, self isolating, or whether in hospitals, they will be treated. And once they are treated and the result is, they have recovered. They are given another 14 days before they can it can be said that you have totally recovered. And so the numbers of people who are who are recovering or have recovered may possibly be more than 410 people, or have been to more than 2000 cases. confirmed they could, the more it becomes, it is delayed or the process to certify that you have

Unknown 1:42:28

Unknown 1:42:31
Wow. And, as I said, You are opening up a whole new realm of questions that we would love to ask. But again, it is now 30 minutes beyond, I think, Oh wait, we asked you, so I just want to thank you thank you thank you. Emily, is it safe for us to close this interview.

Unknown 1:42:54
Yes, yes, thank you so much thank you both. This has been incredible.

Unknown 1:43:00
Questions for us Reverend class.

Unknown 1:43:03

Unknown 1:43:06
lovely about you, okay at the moment is about you saying it's it's about archiving this information. It's not about producing anything by yourself, that would make a reflection of this.

Unknown 1:43:21
So, yes, that is true. However, because this is an open source archived interview. We do have the available opportunity if we desire to use it for our own search purposes.

Unknown 1:43:39
Okay. So at the moment, okay now now understand, is just getting the top to be made available, into a database for anybody, including me, including you. Yes, sir.

Unknown 1:43:57
All these will be open source.

Unknown 1:44:00
Okay. No, that's great, that's great and best wishes. In your academic endeavors. Out of this and other experiences. And I hope I have indeed. I think I hear that you saying the so much. But anytime you want to engage you can engage

Unknown 1:44:26
your regulators and we can

Unknown 1:44:31
show that we meet together. We

Unknown 1:44:35
are I'm going to end the recording, and we can give our official farewells, but I do want to thank you officially on this recording, by saying thank you so much and I'm now stopping the recording date.

Unknown 1:44:53
And yes, we are friends.

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