Wildstyle Paschall Oral History, 2020/09/02


Title (Dublin Core)

Wildstyle Paschall Oral History, 2020/09/02

Description (Dublin Core)

The interviewee in this oral history is a Black man who self identifies as an artist whose primary medium is photography; he is also an avid writer and local, community engaged, thought leader. In this interview, he shares his story of growing up in the United Northwest Area (UNWA) of Indianapolis and his experiences of COVID-19, activism and protests for racial justice, particularly following the killings of Dreasjon Reed in Indianapolis and George Floyd in Minneapolis.

Recording Date (Dublin Core)

Event Identifier (Dublin Core)

Partner (Dublin Core)

Controlled Vocabulary (Dublin Core)

Curator's Tags (Omeka Classic)

Contributor's Tags (a true folksonomy) (Friend of a Friend)

Collection (Dublin Core)

Date Submitted (Dublin Core)


Date Modified (Dublin Core)


Interviewer (Bibliographic Ontology)

Shonda Nicole Gladden

Interviewee (Bibliographic Ontology)

Wildstyle Paschall

Location (Omeka Classic)

Indianapolis, United Northwest Area, UNWA
United States

Format (Dublin Core)


Language (Dublin Core)


Duration (Omeka Classic)


Transcription (Omeka Classic)

*This is not an official transcript. This transcript has been provided by Otter.AI w/ a 2nd pass for accuracy provided by Clinton Roberts, HSE, at ASU.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 0:01
Okay, so you should see a little button up above that says we are recording, can you confirm that you see it? And that you're okay with being recorded?

Wildstyle Pascall 0:11
Yes, that's fine.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 0:12
Okay. So I need to get that recorded in terms of the consent. We, as I just said, we are recording, you know that my name is Shonda, Nicole gladden, and I am the interviewer. I am here with- Can you please state your first name and your last name for the recording?

Wildstyle Pascall 0:33
I mean, you want my government name or name that will be associated with this interview?

Shonda Nicole Gladden 0:38
Ideally, it would be your government name. But do what makes you feel comfortable because this will be made public?

Wildstyle Pascall 0:47
Oh, well, it's definitely Wildstyle for sure. That is- that's the name everybody knows me by so-

Shonda Nicole Gladden 0:56

Wildstyle Pascall 0:56
-we'll stick with that.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 0:58
And Today is September the 2nd, 2020. It is just past 11:00 AM about 11:08 AM, Eastern Standard Time. I am recording from Indianapolis, Indiana. And I believe Wildstyle. Are you also in Indianapolis?

Wildstyle Pascall 1:15
Yes. Uh huh.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 1:16
Okay. So, just briefly, it's going to be slightly more formal than just a regular conversation between the two of us. It will be that because this is part of the COVID-19 Oral History Project, which is associated with the Journal of the Plague Year COVID-19 Archive. Can we take a moment to review?

Wildstyle Pascall 1:42
Uh huh.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 1:43
What's that?

Wildstyle Pascall 1:46
No, go ahead. Yeah, that's a lot. Go ahead.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 1:49
Okay, then we can we can talk about why that's a lot. But you did review the informed consent and the deed of gift document that I sent you correct?

Wildstyle Pascall 1:59
Yes, I agree with it. [both laugh]

Shonda Nicole Gladden 2:03
So we're just going to review it briefly, so that you can audibly give the consent to the thing that you have signed, that you are in agreement with that-

Wildstyle Pascall 2:17

Shonda Nicole Gladden 2:17
During this phase of our project, our research group is focusing its energies on collecting oral histories, that speaks to the experience of racial justice and racial justice movements in the context of COVID-19. So the entire contextual reality of what COVID-19 epidemic means for us individually, as well as kind of collectively. And then, for the purposes of a conversation around racial justice and racial justice movements. We've designed this project so that professional researchers and the broader public can create and upload their oral histories to our open access, and open source database, everyone will have access to it, that wants to.

Wildstyle Pascall 3:02

Shonda Nicole Gladden 3:04
And that it means you too. This study will help us collect narratives and understandings about COVID-19, as well as help us to better understand the impacts, that the pandemic has over time. The recordings and the demographic information that you have just provided audibly. And those few questions that you responded to, optionally, in the pre interview questions that I sent you in the email. These, as well as the verbal- the verbatim transcripts of our conversation. These will be deposited in the Journal of the Plague Year, a COVID-19 Archive, as well as the Indiana University Library System for the use of researchers and the general public. Do you have any questions about the project that I can answer so far?

Wildstyle Pascall 3:51
Oh, no, not right now.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 3:53
Okay, If at any time you do, please say "Hey, hey, hey, hold up. Let's talk about that." Taking part in this study, of course is voluntary, you may choose not to take part or you may leave the study at any time. Leaving the study will not result in any penalty or loss of benefits to which you are entitled, I don't know why we have that there. Your decision whether or not to participate in the study will not affect your current or future relations with Indiana University IUPUI or the IUPUI Arts and Humanities Institute. And you've read some of this, most of this is in the consent form. Participating in this project means that your interviews will be recorded in this digital video. And they will also be transcribed your recordings and the possible transcriptions copies of this and any supplementary documents or additional photos that you may wish to share. And the informed consent that you signed an email back and if necessary deed of gift made it maybe deposited in the Journal of the Plauge Year, a COVID-19 Archive and the Indiana University Library System. And as I shared again, it will be available to both researchers and the general public. Your name and other means of identification will not be confidential. Again, do you have any questions?

Wildstyle Pascall 5:12
No, I'm fine.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 5:13
Okay. So in addition to your signed documents, would you please offer verbal confirmation that you understand and agree to these terms? I'm asking that you verbally confirm that you have agreed that your interview will be made available under the Creative Commons Attribution non-commercial share 4.0 International license, as well as the COVID-19 Oral History, the Journal of the play gear a COVID-19 Archive and the trustees of the Indiana University acting through its agents, employees or representatives that we have an unlimited right to reproduce, use, exhibit, display, perform, broadcast, create derivative works from, and distribute the oral history materials in any manner or media now existing or hereafter developed in perpetuity throughout the world. You agree that the oral history materials may be used for the COVID-19 Oral History Project, and Indiana University, including its assigns and transferees for any purpose, including but not limited to marketing, advertising, publicity or other promotional purposes. And you agree that I, you, will have final editorial authority over the use of the oral history materials, and you waive any right to inspect or approve any future use of the old history materials. Again, this is the same document that you've read. I agree, you agree that the public has the right to use the materials under the terms of fair use, and the US copyright law section 107 of the US Copyright Act?

Wildstyle Pascall 6:49
I agree.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 6:51
And then finally, I promise this is it for all of the "I agree" verbal confirmations. But I'm asking for your verbal confirmation that you have agreed that your interview will be made available to the public immediately or shortly after the curator official finishes processing the file itself. Do you agree?

Wildstyle Pascall 7:12
I agree.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 7:13
All right. So now that that is over, thank you, again, for agreeing to sit for this interview with me. [computer notification beeps] I am going to try to make sure to turn that Slack off. I thought I closed it so that it doesn't jump back up and hopefully that will do it. So do you mind telling me a little bit about yourself primarily, what are the things that you do on a day to day basis, like your job your extracurricular activities.

Wildstyle Pascall 7:46
Um, that's hard to say. So I am a- um a part of, I guess several different community organizations, The Learning Tree being one of them, which is asset based community development organization and basically means we work in in my neighborhood, which is the near Northwest UNWA area, the really assist our community, and, uh, you know, really try to push through the community goals forward. I'm also a, a Central Indiana Community Foundation Ambassador, which is a whole more loaded term. But basically means that I try to explain community to the CICF and also try to introduce them to community and, and meet you know, show them people that are, are doing something that just doesn't always get to their, to their desk. And I'm also a photographer, a producer, a music producer, and a writer at times. And I probably left something out but I do I do a little bit everything.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 9:16
That is a lot that you do. [laughs] If you can clarify, I heard you say then Northeast community but then you said "UNWA" is that?

Wildstyle Pascall 9:31
No, no, the near Northwest and UNWA is the... we have a million different names but
UNWA is probably the old name for United Northwest Area.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 9:43
Thank you.

Wildstyle Pascall 9:45
So so that that's the that's the neighborhood that depending on who you are, uh, you know, you may know it is.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 9:55
So depending upon who you are, let's hang out there for a moment when you think about the categories of race and gender, so social economic status and other kind of common demographic categories. How do you describe yourself?

Wildstyle Pascall 10:14
Oh, give me that again. uh, hold on.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 10:17
Yeah, so thinking about the categories of race, gender, social economic status, and any of the kind of common demographic categories, that one may be asked, how would you self describe?

Wildstyle Pascall 10:35
Honestly, I am a low income, black man. I mean, if I may, if we're just being blunt and honest. That's, that's who I am.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 10:46
All right. So a low income black man, originally from where?

Wildstyle Pascall 10:54
I'm originally from this neighborhood and then we we moved out to the East side for a long time, and I stayed there for a while, for a long time. And then I came back in 2013. Now I'm back to this neighborhood.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 11:10
Back to the UNWA neighborhood. And so-

Wildstyle Pascall 11:13
Yeah, back to UNWA area.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 11:17
What do you see happening around you in your neighborhood? Now, maybe when you came back in 2013, and then also thinking through the lens of COVID-19.

Wildstyle Pascall 11:31
So when I came back in 2013, the neighborhood it had changed in some ways, especially
this part, and because I live on the northern end of and I used to live on the southern end,
but especially this end, it was a lot quieter probably than it was back in the day. Um,
disinvestment, it definitely has taken its toll. I mean, it was I want to say over it might have
been Over 50% of the homes were vacant in the community and the house that I moved
into, had been vacant for a while. And my neighbor said she was so happy that I got here
because she was tired of having vacant houses on both sides of her. And the house next to
me was vacant for you know, and was vacant and you know for for the next four years so
when I came back, you know, things the population had decreased. It wasn't it wasn't
exactly what I remember. Back in the day living there as a kid, there was a lot more people
than it is now. Um, and you know that, but but the sense of community was still still there.
People still talk to each other, took care of each other, but definitely not as many people
and things had kind of gotten a little bit more rundown on this end.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 13:03
So would you say that in terms of the residential space where you live, are these
homeowners, are these renters, is it a mix? Could you clarify that a little?

Wildstyle Pascall 13:16
It's a mix. Um not everybody owns their homes, I think there's a few more people on this end that own their homes, and then South I-65. But for the most part, it's it's a big mix. But the one thing about renters is you got to understand is, especially on my street is almost every single person that- that's moved in over here, is a renter. That may be new to you, but they typically aren't new to this neighborhood. So, so many of them, from day one, you see him talking to everybody, it's because they've lived over here, they lived on the next street or they're coming back, or whatever. So it kind of like blows that that notion of renters being transients, and, and not attached to any community, but the reality is that people over here, and they might live, they might move every couple of years, and they might move every yea, but typically, they're moving from from back and forth over here. So did you know I live on 33rd Street, and they might have lived on 29th or 29th or 28th or 35th and a moving back and forth when because we have a lot of bad landlords, but typically people that that live over here, end up back over here for one reason or another and a lot of them are related to each other families and grew up with each other and so they they end up staying over here, one way or another.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 14:55
Yeah, so it sounds like the community itself is is fairly well defined in terms of its membership in terms of its demographic, these are people that have been there for long spans of time. So it sounds like you would be able to share perhaps, information about them in ways that wood would have a kind of common trajectory, or there's a story that you are very familiar with is-

Wildstyle Pascall 15:28
Mmhmm [affirmative sound]

Shonda Nicole Gladden 15:27
Okay, so thinking about the stories that you know, of your community, and the stories that you have experienced of yourself, what issues have most concerned you about the COVID-19 pandemic, personally, as well as in your community context?

Wildstyle Pascall 15:47
Um, so the community has
a lot of older people in here and you know, a lot of people have in here you know for 20,
30, 40 um, I have a neighbor that's been he's lives in Congress, which is just south a 32nd
Street. So he's been here. Let's see, he moved here in 53 That's what he said. He moved
into that house before the highway got here and moved in, like 1953 so we've got people
that have been here almost, you know, like 70 years and, and stuff and so several of my
neighbors have caught COVID. Some have died. It was one situation early on with the
pandemic was you had you had some grandkids and they were living with their, with their
grandfather and the rest of the people in the house and a grandfather died. And they
didn't know that he had died from covid until they did an autopsy. And so yeah, it's been
you know, it's it's been really hectic at 30th and Clifton you have a senior's apartment
building and so um, you know that they generally I'm not gonna say they stay to
themselves but you know, they kind of talk to each other the most. But you know, they've
been taking it in stride, they still go out on the street, they're not fearful of anything. I wish
they, that more of them would wear masks, but you know, it is what it is. But I mean,
COVID has definitely hit my neighborhood. There's a gentleman that lives up on,
um, 36th Street, him and his wife caught COVID and he's got it. I don't know how old
he is, but I do know that my mom grew up in this neighborhood as well. And she said he
was there is one of the adults that took care of the neighborhood when she was a child, so
he's got to be, he's got to be in his 80s. But they him and his wife both survived. So, you
know, there's been some great stories and some sad stories with the whole COVID-19

Shonda Nicole Gladden 18:24
Yeah, I'm curious. Um, so if you could quantify it, perhaps you can, perhaps you can't, but if
you can give an estimation about how many people would you say that you know, from
your neighborhood who have caught COVID-19 and of those who have caught it, how
many have succombed to the virus and how many have survived if you can give some
kind of round about numbers of what you know of the neighborhood.

Wildstyle Pascall 18:53
So I know probably about four or five that have caught it and it survived. And I would say,
I know definitely one person and then another person that we suspect died of it, you
know, but we know one person for sure died of it over here. And it may be more, you
know, that's just off hand knowledge. Like that's not anything from the CDC or the Marion
County Health Department. But you know, that's just my personal knowledge.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 19:34
Yeah. So thank you for bringing up Marian Health Department and the CDC. I'm curious, how does this pandemic compared to other big events that have happened in your lifetime, but perhaps that the CDC may have been tracking that you can remember in your own lifetime, or that you have heard Marion Health Department has tracked in your own lifetime? Are there differences? Are there similar experiences that you can think of?

Wildstyle Pascall 20:06
I've never experienced
anything like this in my life. Um, I don't remember I know there were you know, there was
panics over what was it H1N1 and stuff in the past but I don't remember anything ever
even coming close to approaching this level of disruption, you know, like having to make
changes, you know, before you would hear about stuff, but ummmm, like yeah I would
never know anybody that it affected. personally. I wouldn't. I remember when West Nile
hit. I think there was a couple of people that died, but for the most part, you didn't know
anything. And I didn't really change. You know, I didn't change my lifestyle. I didn't stop
doing whatever I was doing. I didn't see any Anybody else doing that? So this is the first
time that the people are actively like, Okay, well, I'm looking at a government agency and
trying to figure out okay, you know, what should we be doing? I've never seen that in my

Shonda Nicole Gladden 21:14
Yeah, so how have you changed your day to day activities? In response to the paYeah, so how have you changed your day to day activities in response to the pandemic?
And, and or how have relationships changed for you and people around you in response
to the pandemic?

Wildstyle Pascall 21:30
So me personally, um, you know, I'm always in a lot of different meetings and stuff. So a
lot of that's over Zoom. A in a neighborhood though, like between the neighbors, it's not
that much of a change. I think in general, um, I mean, you see, you see us wearing masks
and stuff like that, but the people on our block, right, wrong or indifferent and it's probably
wrong, but generally, when we're out talking to each other, and We don't have a mask on
and we're not. So, you know, chances are if if one of us gets it, then we're probably all
gonna get hit but right, wrong or indifferent, you know, for the most part, it hasn't
changed people's relationships inside the neighborhood, but it's a lot different going
outside, you know, and people are a lot more more cautious. It seems like you know,
outside of, of the community, so

Shonda Nicole Gladden 22:29
So, you say inside the neighborhood, inside the
community outside the neighborhood outside the community, could you give a kind of
boundary marking about how far the neighborhood extends to where you would say that
inside the neighborhood, we are doing these things, and where the boundary markers
might be for what looks like to be outside the neighborhood.

Wildstyle Pascall 22:56
So I'm, I'm at 33rd and Clifton. So I mean, the neighborhood is kind of, the larger, the larger area that most
people kind of know each other and considered to be like the same area is really Martin
Luther King Boulevard, or Martin Luther King Street, and then you have all the way over to
the canal, down to about maybe 18th Street and Riverside. You know, and that's past
Harding. And then you know, so that that whole area is kind of it's kind of one big
neighborhood and people generally, I think, think if you're getting you know, people get on
the buses and they're on the bus stops and they've got their masks on, but I mean, if
you're in any one of those places, and you're walking around, typically you're there all the
time and, and people just kind of go about their day, as usual. But you know, like, if you're
getting on the bus and you're going downtown or are going somewhere else. That's
typically where people even in my neighborhood seem to be more cautious. Like they're,
they take more precautions, but kind of in our own neighborhood, you don't, you know,
people aren't masked up the whole time and you know, when they're on the block talk
consider neighbors they do typically not wearing a mask with each other. Um, so, you
know that, that hasn't changed. But you know, you know, if we're going to be going
downtown or you're going out to Lafayette road or something like that and it's not a
familiar surroundings. I think that I don't think that's I don't think it makes sense but that's
how we, that's kind of how you judge, you know, what people are going to have on.
They're going to have a mask on and stuff like that.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 24:55
Thank you. That's very helpful to
share your personal and community context and just kind of your perspective on how
COVID-19 has shaped or is impacting or intersecting both of those. Is there anything else
that you would like to share about your personal experience with COVID-19? Or your
community experience with COVID-19 before we shift to the conversation around racial
justice movements in the time of COVID-19?

Wildstyle Pascall 25:22
Oh, not a whole lot. I mean, I don't want to
get people up in the conspiracy theories, but I know that the end of December in January,
I got sick with, and I and, at the time, you know, people didn't know much about COVID
and they didn't have standardized symptoms, but when they standardized the symptoms,
I swear that I had every one of those symptoms. I lost my, my sense of taste that I got the
chills a couple of times I almost thought I was getting pneumonia, but I didn't feel bad
because I had pneumonia last year. I didn't feel that bad. And then I had this cough that
just wouldn't go away and I had low energy and around this time I was going to a
downtown gym and, and stuff and may have been exposed to people that were traveling
and stuff. So I don't know if I had it or not. But whatever I had seemed to match a lot of
the, uh, almost all the symptoms that I've heard of COVID-19. And that was back, I think I
got sick in December, the end very end it was after Christmas, and I was sick into January.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 26:36
And to clarify, this is December of 2019 into January of 2020?

Wildstyle Pascall 26:42

Shonda Nicole Gladden 26:43
All right. That is a very interesting, additional perspective. So thank you for sharing that. I don't know that there are additional questions that I have about the COVID-19 and your personal experience or your community experience. But if as we're talking about the racial justice movements in the time of code 19, something else comes to your mind, please feel free to invite us to return to that space of conversation. So-

Wildstyle Pascall 27:15

Shonda Nicole Gladden 27:16
-I'm now want to know, if you can share your thoughts about current movements focused on racial justice, such as Black Lives Matter, or any other movements of which you are aware that are happening currently focused on racial justice?

Wildstyle Pascall 27:36
Oh, I will say that I feel like the pace is picked up
because of COVID-19 exposing how flawed our system is and how many people we've left
on the margins. And also people having more time on their hands to have a) for activism
and a) to think about what's really going on here. So, um I would say COVID-19 is really
exposed a lot of racial inequities and inequities period, but a lot of racial disparities
everywhere. Everything from who's being affected physically or more likely to die because
of lack of healthcare all the way to who's more likely to get evicted because they're more
affected by the economic impact. So, I mean, there's just a lot going on that I feel like
COVID is, is kind of exposed, even with the social service agencies scrambling and really
not quite having a, a plan in place to help people and realizing that a lot of the people
that they're helping, well, they were already doing bad before COVID and somehow, you
know, we've been missing them all this time, but now we're seeing that it's even worse and
we're having to work harder. So it's been, COVID-19 has been an exposé into American
values and society

Shonda Nicole Gladden 29:18
Wow. So COVID-19 being an exposé into American values and American Society, I want to
ask very specifically about what changes you have seen in this COVID-19, but also since
George Floyd's death. Have you seen changes since George Floyd's death?

Wildstyle Pascall 29:44
I have seen changes and conversations. Um, I'd like to see some some changes and actions,
but that's yet to for a lot, a lot of organizations, a lot of people. I think it's been more of
the conversations, which is a good start. I think is what's happened is it's been a window
for everybody to, to watch the video and finally, I mean unless you know unless you're just
a sociopath racist, you know is something's wrong in America, uh, with George Floyd but it
shouldn't have taken that. Um, so there's definitely, there's definitely changes in
conversation going on. I don't know about changes in policy though. I mean, especially
here locally, in Indianapolis. Um, when you look at our politicians, they talk a good game,
but when you look at the action. Okay, what substantive actions have you taken to address police brutality and oppression in Indianapolis? And then you- and if you look at
okay, the question about change, it's much harder to quantify. You know, everybody's
talked a good, you know, we've got I was at IUPUI today with somebody going to the
dentistry school and I, I saw the big Black Lives Matter signage over that walkway. And I
looked and I'm like, well, does it? I mean, is that what, is that what we're doing? What
actions have we taken besides put the sign up? So I don't know that that's a, I see
conversations, I see signs, um, policy changes and decisions, that that's not quite
come about yet.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 31:50
And so the changes in increased conversations, what do you think has driven that change are those changes since George Floyd's death?

Wildstyle Pascall 32:03
I think I mean I think we were already seeing with COVID with COVID-19 who is most
impacted, you know, economically and health wise and you know with with seeing just
such a just evil video of somebody you know, choking somebody to death for almost nine
minutes I think that put, put things in perspective, of how out of control, not only just
police but American society has gotten in oppressing people, um, people that didn't
believe in, in police brutality before had to, you know, or felt that it was such a isolated
incident had to come to grips that there was all these other officers around holding the
crowd at bay and stopping you know stopping the crowd from, from, from, keeping the,
um, that officer from killing George Floyd. And so that you didn't have all these you know,
isolated incident of an officer acting alone. You had all these officers supporting him and,
and, and and maybe their foot wasn't on his neck but they kept everybody else from from
stopping the situation so we have to come to grips that America isn't quite what we uh,
what we imagined it to be or what we want it to be at and you know for most people that
you know even police officers like they a lot of them recognize it was wrong now isn't
necessarily mean that they they went back to their own police departments and called
out the in justices there. But they recognize that that was wrong and it was a problem. And
when people started looking into the Minneapolis police and all the different incidents
they had, they realized that this was a pattern and that this, you know, maybe just maybe
what black people have been saying for years about police brutality and racism and
oppression, finally, I think a lot of white Americans realize, oh, they're not lying. And so
that that was a catalyst to, to some some real difficult conversations of, again, not, not a
lot of substantive action from from everybody, but at least the conversations are

Shonda Nicole Gladden 34:33
So you said people looking into Minneapolis police and people looking into and people keeping the other officers from actually killing George Floyd. Can you talk a little bit about these people that you referenced in those various scenarios? Who are they? What are they doing? How do they come up on the scene?

Wildstyle Pascall 34:57
You talking about like Black Lives Matter activists and stuff like that, or

Shonda Nicole Gladden 35:01
Is that who you mean when you say people?

Wildstyle Pascall 35:04
Well, I will say so activists, activist is a loose term. Um, I don't, I don't want to think of myself as an activist. I think of myself as just an engaged citizen that has the capacity to do it, I don't have kids. So I can do stuff like that. And I think there's a lot of people that that have the capacity, that are finally being listened to, I think a lot of those people have always been there asking those questions. But now they're finally being listened to. So you have activists, you have people that have the capacity to understand what's going on and realizes wrong that that we need to take a closer look at all of these, all of these encounters with police. And, and look at what went right. And definitely look at what went wrong. And so, you know, when the activists and really the world because I'm not an- I was- if I would ever describe myself as an activist, I'm not an activist from Minneapolis. I'd be an activist for Indianapolis, but it you know, that video allowed everybody to really dissect it and become an activist and realize, well, this is, you know, yeah, that officer did stood on a man's neck for nine minutes as he was crying out for his mother and killed him. Yes, that is evil and as bad but what about those other officers that were with him and didn't stop him didn't say anything, didn't encourage him too stop? And I think everybody has ended up becoming an activist on that they realize like, no, this is this is something more wrong with just one person. You know, just one bad apple.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 36:58
So I heard you use the word activist several times. And there's common language that we've heard in some of these other conversations that gets lifted up this protesters, organizers, activists, can you talk about the the differences in these terms, the ways that these bodies that have been labeled with these terms are experienced in this COVID-19 era, and this year that we are we are seeing in the wake of George Floyd's death. Do you understand my question?

Wildstyle Pascall 37:34
Yeah, um, I don't know if I can answer your question. [laughs]

Shonda Nicole Gladden 37:38

Wildstyle Pascall 37:38
Um, I mean, activists, activists sometimes get a bad rap in some scenarios. You know, in many cases, they're the person that that is seen is always looking for something like if you're an environmental activist, and you're, you're looking for the company that is breaking the law and destroying the environment, pouring toxic chemicals or just doing something like that. If you're- Previously, if you were a Black Lives Matter activists, even though they do much more than just worry about police brutality, but you- you've been seen as the person that's always after the police and, and questions everything about what the police are doing, and, and in some way supervises them from an outside role. When when people allow it, but I don't I mean, I feel like COVID19 is become you know, it's caused people to a) to have a lot more time. A lot of people
have a lot more time on their hands and be able to become to be more involved in
activism, and also protesting and I don't think all protesters are, are necessarily activists.
Activism required you to have capacity and time to stay on these issues be, you know, be
educated on these issues. And there's a lot of stuff that I'm not educated on myself, but I
will always defer to INDY10 and Black Lives Matter because they are more educated than
I will ever be on how to run a protest safely. And so when I show up in those arenas, I'm a
protester. And, you know, I'm supporting other other activists that organize this and have
a plan for if things go south, and we all get arrested. I'm not the one with the phone
numbers to get bailed out. They are. I don't know how the system works very well, but they
do. They know who to call. They know what lawyers to to get there. They've got security,
they've got the cars that will block our flank and block the sides and hopefully keep
people from running this over and they know what to watch for. When things go south. So
they are the lead activists and I'm the protester in that role. And so I think people always
get it, then you know, everything is a spectrum people always kind of get get things
twisted about what everybody's role is. And you know, if you interview a random protester
out there, maybe they're not going to be able to articulate what policies need to be
changed with the IMPD, the general orders board to make things different, but they are
out there for a reason is because they trust other activists to help out with something like
that. They trust other leaders to do that. And their role is for agitation, to demand justice
to do what it needs, needs to be done. And I think sometimes that gets gets lost. On you
know, when when we start labeling things, because I think labels aren't always a bad
thing, but I think, you know, they can be weaponized in some cases and I see it done a lot
with with protesting and activists because also when a protester becomes throws a brick,
you know now, now they've said that now they're a rioters and they've they've turned the protesters in to rioters and activists along with them. So, you know, language is tricky and sometimes it's weaponized and everything's a spectrum.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 41:32
No, thank you very much. I really appreciate how you have kind of delineated between protester activists, rioters and the ways that you have seen these these labels, if you will, perhaps weaponized, but certainly expressed in this kind of COVID-19 era, and just in general, so have you attended any of the protests as a protester?

Wildstyle Pascall 41:59
I've attended quite a few actually.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 42:01
Can you tell me about what they look like, the protests?

Wildstyle Pascall 42:06
I've seen everything. When Dreasjon Reed was killed, I was there the fir- the first night. Um, and there was no clear leadership at the scene. And so there was some of the people that
probably weren't out there for the right reasons. Some of them actually got into a fight,
you know, over a over really the bullhorn. I mean, they had differences of opinion, but it
was really, the bullhorn and the access to believe in it. They could direct a crowd or
redirect round. Later on, and next day. There was a rally called downtown and some of the
same people that were down there that I felt were ineffective the first night, first night
we're down there, speaking to the crowd, and taking over the protest. And but this was not
activists. This was a lot of young people that were protesting a lot of these people knew
Dreasjon Reed. And so when the older crowd and the and the people that sometimes are
seen as community leaders left, those young people stayed down downtown, and they
lead themselves on a march around downtown that scared the hell out of IMPD and the
city, because they didn't know which activist was leading them which it was none of them.
And they handled it themselves. To me that it didn't get enough media coverage. I took
tons of pictures, but to me that was probably one of the best, most beautiful things I've
ever seen in my life. That they took it upon themselves and it was some tense moments. I
captured some of that in pictures of of the standoff at Market Street and Pennsylvania,
where the police had, had brought out the tear gas rounds. And they were standing
staring each other down and said that you're not going for another lap. But it ended up it
ended peacefully. And I felt like that was one of the most pure forms of protest because
nobody was leading the march for, for any personal gain. They weren't. They didn't have a
different agenda other than justice for Dreasjon Reed

Shonda Nicole Gladden 44:33
So thank you for sharing that. You You took pictures of that. Curious, would you be willing
to share a few of those pictures one or two of those pictures for the archive so that we
could upload it as part of the oral history but also as part of the story that we tell in the
Journal of the Plague Year?

Wildstyle Pascall 44:51

Shonda Nicole Gladden 44:53
Outstanding. So you said that you've attended many but this one in the wake of the killing
of Dreasjon Reed for the purpose of the archive, can you explain just maybe in one or two
sentences, the Dreasjon Reed context for those who may not be familiar with who he is,
what happened? Why was there protests? Why is it specific related to Indianapolis or
anything you can share in terms of a context?

Wildstyle Pascall 45:22
So on May 6, I believe, that would have
been- I think it was a Wednesday night. Dreasjon Reed was probably and possibly driving
too fast on highway he got followed actually by the police chief himself, up Michigan
Road for awhile but the police chief broke off pursuit and a you know, it just wasn't that
big of a deal. But another another IMPD officer picked up the pursuit and um, followed, you know, followed him all the way until 62nd and Michigan Road where Dreasjon Reed
pulled over into a parking lot behind the building, parked his car and ran across Michigan
Road. Which the officer then followed him and shot him at least 10 times. And Dreasjon
Reed was on Facebook Live as the whole thing happened, and most people that that
could see the Live could see that it was impossible for Dreasjon Reed to have posed a
threat to this officer. So people were extremely upset and ready to take action. So that
that's the context from that and this was before George Floyd.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 46:52
Thank you very much for that Indianapolis specific context because this is in Indianapolis, Indiana. Okay, um, so that's one protests that you say you were attending, and can you share anything about any of the others? Have there been others and they all been here in Indianapolis that you've attended, or have you attended protests in other places?

Wildstyle Pascall 47:16
I've never attended protests
anywhere else. Um, I've attended a lot here. I think there's a lot of other ones that went
well. I think there's some that that went really bad. I felt like that they were infiltrated by
people that had an agenda that wasn't the crowds agenda, particularly the governor's
march, March to the Governor's Mansion, where some of the so-called leaders came to
the front with bull horns and turned the crowd back, one block away from the governor's
mansion, and we never actually got there and then had the police walk with us and hug
the police and all this other nonsense. I was extremely displeased about that. And then
last month when two IMPD officers were charged from that event response group, the
same IMPD officers that would have been monitoring that Governor's Mansion protest.
They walk back with this 100 of those people threatened to walk out over two IMPD
officers being charged with battery and perjury for beating women during a protest. So I
was you know, I was upset at the time at the protest. I'm even more upset now. Looking at
the just type of manipulation but also duplicity of the IMPD officers who, who sort of walk
tried to walk back arm and arm with some of the protesters and hug them, knowing that
a couple of months later they would threaten to walk off their job because their their
fellow officers were held accountable, you know, for for brutalizing somebody. And I've
been to several INDY10 protests that that I felt went really well. I think the funniest one
was, I want to say was two weeks ago where it started out it the it was just called a car
protesting yoga. And basically a whole caravan people drove up to the mayor's house,
blocked off the street and they did yoga for about an hour in front of Mayor Hoggsett's
house. So that that was very clever to me. And it was fun in a way that I hadn't really seen
from other protests. So I really enjoyed that, even though I didn't go do the yoga with

Shonda Nicole Gladden 50:01
So what motivated you to attend these protests?

Wildstyle Pascall 50:07
Um, I don't want to sound all high and mighty, but I'm 39 years old, and I'm offended that two people younger than me are, are having to protest this mess. It means that my generation didn't do what they should have been doing, and neither did some of the generation before me. And so I feel is my responsibility to get out there to hopefully make this a better world than what we've handed out to these young folks. It's embarrassing to me. And so I have to be out there. To do my part, I have no excuses. Like I said, I don't have any kids, or anything like that. So there's no excuse for me not to be a doing what needs to be done out here to make the city and its world a better place for the next generation.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 51:11
So, I heard you mentioned INDY10 Black Lives Matter. Can you tell me more information
about that particular organization? Is it a member of- is it considered a Black Lives Matter
movement chapter to your knowledge? Or if it is-

Wildstyle Pascall 51:33
I, see, I actually I don't really know if
they're considered- I mean, they're most definitely a Black Lives Matter chapter. I don't
know that they have any affiliation with the National chapters but they've been doing
their work since 2014. And they are the de facto people that, through thick and thin, have
been through it. They were taking heat and long before IUPUI, or, or the governor was ever
willing to say the words Black Lives Matter. And so, you know, in my eyes, they're the de
facto organization that that handles these things. they've handled it before it was cool
before it was popular and they've taken heat for it. And, and and taken the bumps and the
bruises from it. And you know, so I support them, especially through all this as much as as
possible. Um, and you know in a support role, too often with activists, or people who
think they want to be activists that they want it they do it for the limelight. And that's not
why I'm out there. I don't want the limelight. I think that comes with a more responsibility
than I'm prepared for. And I also don't want to interrupt progress, and they're doing great
work right now. And so, you know, everybody that is that I feel is doing great work is
gonna get as much support as I can give them.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 53:13
Are there other organizations that you're aware of that are engaged in racial movements for racial dresses in Indianapolis or in Indiana, at this present time?

Wildstyle Pascall 53:25
There are other organizations, I think it just depends on what capacity like I mean, if we're
talking about a street protest, then INDY10 is probably the one that the organization for
that I think if you're talking about other issues of policy, around dealing with oppression
and poverty and everything else, there are other organizations that are specific. So you
know, you got a lot of specialized organizations that do certain things. But you know, when
it comes to holding the Black Lives Matter mantle that's, that's, definitely INDY10. Years ago, another organization Don't Sleep was also a Black Lives Matter chapter and they still
exist, and they still do great work, but it's around entrepreneurship and, and you know,
dealing with the other parts of, of building a better society for black and brown people.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 54:37
I'm not sure, but I believe that you are frozen. And so I'm going to notate on the recording
that we have gone for roughly 60 minutes about an hour, and at this point, it seems as
though WildStyle is frozen. And now he has dropped off. Hopefully he will rejoin the
interview. Going to give it a moment to see if he rejoins so we can continue the interview.
Hi, have you made it back? I see your name. I'm not sure if you have audio connected. If
you can say something?

Wildstyle Pascall 55:38
You can see hear me?

Shonda Nicole Gladden 55:40
Yes, now I can hear you. And-

Wildstyle Pascall 55:42
Okay good.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 55:44
And I can see you again. Okay.

Wildstyle Pascall 55:46
Okay. Yeah, I don't know what happened.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 55:49
So I am noting in the recording that we had hit just about the 60 minute mark. And occasionally in these interviews, when we hit the 60 minute mark, we do have some connectivity challenges. So we'll keep pressing forward-

Wildstyle Pascall 56:07

Shonda Nicole Gladden 56:08
-now that we have you back. I think it's a point where you dropped off, though you were talking about don't sleep and other organizations that are doing work around movements for racial justice here in Indianopolis. Is there anything else that you'd like to share about other organizations in addition to INDY10 and Don't Sleep?

Wildstyle Pascall 56:30
Um, I would definitely say the
Kheprw Institute. They've been doing the work for a long time and but their work is the
building work of the community. You know, you're not gonna see Kheprw organize a street
style protest, but they've definitely protested some other things in very creative ways. The
way they build community, The Learning Tree, which I'm a part of also does does a lot of
racial justice work in a in a a building type fashion. Um, you have some some
organizations that are shifting towards making fighting racism as one of the goals and
the Central Indiana Community Foundation is is one of them and one and their mission
statement is to dismantle racism, systemic racism. So, I mean, you have other
organizations that are making changes at different levels but with racism and racism
exists at all levels. So there has to be somebody there fighting at all all those levels too

Shonda Nicole Gladden 57:46
Um thank you, we're going to shift just a hair as we continue to think about and
talk about the movement for racial justice. Can you- What can you tell me about the role
of art in the movement for racial justice? And or Black Lives Matter?

Wildstyle Pascall 58:03
It is, um, art is a often
overlooked, overlooked, overlooked tool in fighting for justice. One of the things that- like
as a photographer, I'm considered an artist and I try to take the best pictures of of the
protest because I want people to see that people are fired up and, and demanding
change. And so I do my best from artistic lens to to give that type of narrative and art is,
art is really storytelling. And so I think you know, a couple of days ago I put up a picture I
was coming back from [audio cuts out] -off to the distance on the southeast side which I don't go over
that often what was new was lit up it was a crane over it. It was like at least six or seven
stories in the air in the night sky and in this and when I got to South Avenue, I realized I
knew what this was this was the new jail. And so I pulled over into the parking lot and I
took a picture of it and I did a write up and explain how I felt seeing this building that I
said, you know must be an expression of our our power, wealth and values as a society.
With all this stuff going on with racial justice, I said this is a be the building that will house
the downtrodden, the black, and brown people, the impoverished people suffer suffering
from the effects systemic racism. And I put all of that and show the picture of the jail and I
think, you know, people really kind of- it shocked a lot of people seeing like the imposing
artistic picture, that I took of the jail in the night sky with the moon above it. Like
juxtaposing that with the reality that that is what the jail is going to do. That is where
people black and brown people that are poor, that have dealt with the effects of systemic
racism. That is where what's going to house them here and so that that was part of my
protest. Right there. And, you know, the Black Lives Matter mural downtown on on Indiana
Avenue. A lot of it was very controversial, not just from people that don't believe Black
Lives Matter, but from from people that believe it should but felt that this city didn't
deserve it. You know that we haven't made any substantive changes and you know that
our politicians haven't, haven't stopped the oppression thats going on and they felt that we
didn't deserve it. But when- it was still a powerful statement, because as much as there
hasn't been enough policy change, when those artists went down there to, to paint that
mural. There were people that actively came up and tried to stop them, but there was
security there to hold those people back to to make sure that there was some type of
order over the area and it was people that came up with guns. It was people who came up
yelling, and it only took a week for the mural to actually get defaced by someone. So that
was art, the art itself did not change but the conversation on why why people get upset
for for Black Lives Matter for it to be written on a street for people to want to come up
with guns or, or drive around terrorizing people to stop it. And that was part of the
reaction to it. And so I think people don't understand that art is storytelling and public art
drives conversation. And so if you put a a public art piece that is storytelling, you're
driving. Now, the public is talking about the story that you've put up, whether it's true,
whether it's false, whether they agree or whether they disagree. You've driven public conversation and so that that mural was a perfect example of driving public conversation
towards Black Lives Matter, and the topic, you know, does it matter here?

Shonda Nicole Gladden 1:03:03
So I'm going to, again request that we have these photographs to be connected to the
oral history, because you have self identified in this moment as an artist, correct?

Wildstyle Pascall 1:03:19

Shonda Nicole Gladden 1:03:20
And that your artistic expression is related to your activism. And that these
expressions might be helpful to to tell a deeper story in terms of what you just shared, and
that would be the photograph of the jail in the night sky. It sounds like a photograph of
the Black Lives Matter mural. And it sounds like a photograph of the protests, the yogi
protesters that you lifted up, and I believe there was one more but I'll have to check the
transcription. But those specifically and any others that you would like to be included
again in the COVID-19 Oral History Project and to go into perpetuity as far as as far as the
historical record of your activism and your art. Anything else that you'd like to tell us
about your expressions, your artistic expressions related to your activism, and your
connection to the movements of racial justice, specifically Black Lives Matter. I'm going to
shift in a moment.

Wildstyle Pascall 1:04:29
Well, I mean, I've also done some writing. Um, I wrote a piece that was
published in New America, the New America blog, it was called Indiana Avenue, the ethnic
cleansing of Black Indianapolis and that was, that was I'm not gonna say it was Black
Lives Matter in the the strict sense of what people think police brutality but it was
definitely, Black Lives Matter when it comes to lives, culture, housing, quality of life. And I
wanted to get that story out there for people to understand how we ended up here and
how we've never come to grips with the effects of racism, not only from the, from the end
of, you know, the end of the Civil War, but the stuff that only happened 50 years ago, or
only happened 60 years ago. So, you know, I've done a bit of writing as well, so.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 1:05:42
again, any additional information you'd like to include in the archive, we'd love to have
that. I know that the New America blog, it sounds like it's definitely something we can still
have access to. For those who watch the recording, even if we don't have it included in the
archive information. Just before we shift to the final conversation around leadership in the
future, you mentioned being at the protest. You mean, you mentioned being near
protesters? And what about this still looming reality of COVID-19? Were you concerned
about exposure to COVID-19? Did anyone at the protest say anything about exposure to

Wildstyle Pascall 1:06:26
I was concerned I didn't. I mean, especially the the early protests in May
around Dreasjon Reed I was concerned I was I was was torn on that, um, not so much
about my own safety, but I didn't want wanted to end up being a lot. It's just us outbreak
after the protest, and it ended up not being that and I think a lot of it, you know, a lot of experts have said that the protests didn't lead to outbreaks because they were outdoors.
Most of us had masks on. And so it wasn't as big of an issue as people would have
thought. And then at the at the protests, there were also people that were handing out
masks in May. I remember that that was the first one. The next day after Dreasjon Reed
was, was killed when they had the rally downtown, there were people passing out masks,
and I took pictures of my buddy, he brought his own masks down there and passed them
out to people. And I think that was the difference. And then the later protests as masks
became more available, um, when they would call, you know, put out a call to action to
come down there for a protest. They said, "bring a mask," and so people did that. So I think
that that had a great positive effect on on keeping everybody safe. And not causing an
outbreak because because of a protest for racial justice.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 1:08:08
Thank you for that. So I am very
much wanting to honor your time. And I know we requested about 90 minutes of your
time. And so I'm acknowledging we have about 14 minutes remaining, and our time
together. And so I want to ask a few questions about leadership and future. And then any
closing questions and anything else you'd like to share in the time we have together? Has
your experience transformed how you think about your family, your friends, community
and society? And if so, in what ways?

Wildstyle Pascall 1:08:45
I would say yes, um, I think in in some ways. You don't
take all of that for granted as much, knowing that COVID hasn't been as bad as it could
have been has been bad, but it hasn't been as bad as it, it could have been and- But I
worry greatly about my 86 year old grandmother. I worry about my parents, they're in
their 60s or my dad's 65. And so, you know, it makes you think more about about those. I
have older friends, I have a mentor that he's got to be close to his late 70s. He's definitely
in his late 70s. Now, maybe 80. And we talked on the phone other day and he talked
about that him and his wife did get COVID-19 and then and it wasn't that bad for him.
And he's- He's got good genes, his father is still alive actually. And so he's got good
genes and everything, but it just makes you concerned and makes you you know, think
about how much all those people mean, mean to you. Um, also, it makes you think about
how- what the economic effects how much- how the people the that are around you how,
how close to the margins, or already on the margins that they may be. You know, when
they're dealing with the effects or they're telling you about their, their situation on how
they don't know how they're going to pay their rent, or they haven't eaten, or they haven't,
you know, they can't afford to go to a dentist. You know, even a low-cost dentist or
something, but are in excruciating pain. And so, you know, all of that, you know, kind of is
sobering. It's definitely sobering.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 1:11:04
And how have municipal leaders and government officials in your community responded to the outbreak in your opinion?

Wildstyle Pascall 1:11:15
Um, I would say that there are people in city government that have tried to do a good job.
But I also think that largely, I don't think city government has done enough. I think that
particularly with the the eviction crisis going on in Indianapolis that this was a situation in
the making for years. We've, you know, I've been looking into writing an article about it,
and I learned that it may have been 40,000 people that attempted to apply for Section 8
the last time it opened, which was in 2016. And, and, and our city leaders have allowed this
situation to exist for all this time. And now with COVID now that we have all this, this
going on, now we're looking at the effects that things are really bad that that people
really are being evicted that they didn't really have a chance to should have already been
on Section 8 and should have been receiving affordable housing. And when we look at the
situation going on with the the building boom in Indianapolis, the Indianapolis Business
Journal describes Indianapolis is having a historic building boom last year. And yet
we have all these people that are being evicted this year. So it's real clear that the have
nots are having having less and the people that have been doing good are doing better
and now COVID is exposing it in worse way. And I'm sad about that. I don't think the the
city leaders have realized that their own policies have have caused the situation and
therefore, they haven't put enough policy into rectifying the problems that COVID is
causing when you have this, this much poverty. It put everybody at risk for for being
economically destroyed with COVID-19. And so I think we need to work harder as a city,
not just not just the city government itself, but our nonprofits and everybody that
interfaces with them. I feel like we have to work harder to fix this.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 1:13:52
So what do you imagine your life will be like in a year?

Wildstyle Pascall 1:14:00
I don't know. [laughs] COVID-19 and the year 2020 has shown it, you don't know what's gonna
happen to anything to anybody at anytime and anyway. Uh, so next year, I don't know, I
don't know what, I don't know what the conversation is going to be. Next year I hope the
conversation is is going to be how we fix this mess. You know, are figuring out okay, well,
we're, we're putting the policies in place. This is working or that's not working. I hope we're
not still at the stage we're at now where we're still acting like we don't know what to do.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 1:14:48
And so with the difficulty of thinking about a year from now, can you, can you project anything about five years from now?

Wildstyle Pascall 1:15:03
[laughs] Um. Five years from now, I still want to be an artist of some kind. Um, doing some music,
photography. I would love to do architecture, not maybe not as a career, but I would love
to design help design some, some residential housing of some sort, not skyscrapers
or anything like that. But I definitely would like to design some things. And, you know,
hopefully, I'm not all stressed out and bothered that. That's my hope for five years from

Shonda Nicole Gladden 1:15:47
Thank you. Knowing what you know now, what do you think that individuals communities
or governments need to keep in mind for the future?

Wildstyle Pascall 1:15:56
Um, They need to keep in mind for the future that having people leaving people
teetering on the margins just so they can make a little bit more profit will come back to
bite them. And I hope they look at the numbers from COVID-19 to go do that, from a
moral perspective, I hope people get it but I, this country wasn't founded on morals. It was
it was founded on on hate for taxation and monetary policy that the British were having.
So I hopefully people will learn that. A little bit of money spent on prevention side making
sure that we don't have people teetering on poverty. We don't have all these people that
probably shouldn't be in some type of affordable housing program that teetering with
with slumlords that are fleecing them that if something happens like COVID-19 and
something like this will happen again of course, that had you put a you know, an ounce of
prevention, then when something like this happens you would have had a pound of more
than a pound of cure to get back out of it. And I think this is hopefully a wake up call to
everyone that feels like well, it's not society's responsibility to to worry about about
people that are being destroyed by it. Because eventually when it gets bad enough, it will
be and it's gonna cost you more money. And even if you don't care about, about human
beings Hopefully you can care, you can carry care about saving money.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 1:18:06
Well, I want to thank you again for your time. In closing, if there's anything else that you'd
like us to talk about, related to the Black Lives Matter movement COVID-19 your
experience of it. But then also, if you can think of any other people that I should be interviewing for this project, any groups, any people, any organizations that come to mind that you would recommend?

Wildstyle Pascall 1:18:33
Oh, I'll do um Pam Ross, the Vice President of equity and inclusion at the Central Indiana
Community Foundation. Um I would say anybody from INDY 10, Black Lives Matter,
maybe D Ross, the founder of the Ross foundation and you know there's a lot of other
people. But those definitely come to mind.

Shonda Nicole Gladden 1:19:16
Well, that's very helpful. I want to thank you
again for taking about 90 minutes of your time today. I do know how busy you are with all
of the many hats that you wear. And so I'm really grateful for you saying yes, and this
concludes our interview. I'm going to turn the recording off at this time.

Wildstyle Pascall 1:19:35

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