Gary Luloff Oral History, 2021/04/29


Title (Dublin Core)

Gary Luloff Oral History, 2021/04/29

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Interviewer (Bibliographic Ontology)

Grace Luloff

Interviewee (Bibliographic Ontology)

Gary Luloff

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St. Marys Point
United States of America

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Transcription (Omeka Classic)

Grace Luloff 00:00
If I did it, okay, um, the date is April 22, 2021. It's 3:05pm. The US COVID cases is at 31,666,546. US deaths are at 566,496. Wisconsin cases are 500,500 92,984 Wisconsin deaths 6725 There are 20 or 290 million people vaccinated and Minnesota is at 560,450 cases. Um, Alright. So what is your name? And do you mind sharing demographic information, such as race, ethnicity, age and gender?

Gary Luloff 01:01
Gary, excuse me Luloff, and I don't mind sharing information.

Grace Luloff 01:08
Right. So, what is your race, ethnicity, age and gender?

Gary Luloff 01:17
I am a Caucasian male, 57 years old.

Grace Luloff 01:23

Gary Luloff 01:25
My ethnicity is American, I guess.

Grace Luloff 01:35
(laughs) What are the primary things you do on a day to day basis example your job, extra curricular things.

Gary Luloff 01:43
I am an attorney at a law firm in downtown Minneapolis. That is the vast part of my weekdays and some parts of my weekends.

Grace Luloff 01:58
So not much time for extracurriculars?

Gary Luloff 02:00
Not much.

Grace Luloff 02:03
Where do you live and what's it like to live there?

Gary Luloff 02:08
I live in St. Mary's Point, Minnesota, which is a small town near the Wisconsin border with Minnesota. About 25 or 30 miles east of Minneapolis. It is quiet and fairly remote and fairly isolated.

Grace Luloff 02:35
That sounds nice, especially with some of the commotion when working in downtown Minneapolis. Um, when you first learned about COVID-19, what were your thoughts about it? And how have your thoughts changed since then?

Gary Luloff 02:57
I think my first thought was that it was going to be a normal flu. And it was not. And I don't think we I don't think we were prepared for it. Because we thought it was going to be a normal flu, which doesn't affect that many people.

Grace Luloff 03:32
When do you think you realize that it wasn't just a regular flu?

Gary Luloff 03:40
I think when I heard people talking about quarantine, so that was probably late February prior early, late February, early March of 2020. And the idea that that it was going to be virulent and contagious enough where that was a consideration. kind of took it out of the background noise for me. We have flu every year of some variety.

Grace Luloff 04:18
Yeah, and that's like a 1% less than 1% mortality rate. And then this is obviously not. How have your thoughts changed about the pandemic since that time?

Gary Luloff 04:45
I think in terms of of sort of pathogenic terms, I don't think it's changed. I think it's it is what, what it seemed to be early on our ability to to react to it and their willingness to sacrifice any comfort prolonged it more than I thought it would I had would never have believed we'd still be dealing with it 14 months later, 16 months 15 months later.

Grace Luloff 05:34
So the comfort level you mean comfort of being able to like, leave your home, or come okay comfort and or physical comfort with not wearing a mask.

Gary Luloff 05:48
No, just not altering, not altering your not lack of willingness to alter your routine for day to day living. The selfishness of of people, the lack of realization that we have a collaborative role in society or duty to society that is above and beyond just our own personal whims or interests or desires. It's not all about us or me.

Grace Luloff 06:33
So, going off of that you continued to work during the pandemic. So how is COVID 19 affected your job and in what ways?

Gary Luloff 06:45
Well, uh, what they were, there was a prolonged period, and not terribly prolonged, but four to six week period, where I had to work exclusively remotely. Which was very difficult. When I was able to come back into my office, it was mostly because I'm able to largely isolate in my office to, and actually more isolated and able to concentrate more, because there wasn't, there weren't all my family at home, or my family was all at home and I wasn't there then. It made me realize how much of what we do on a daily basis is mostly this. Lawyers, but probably in other fields as well, is informal collaboration and informal contact, and we were just talking, we had a meeting the other day, about we're doing zoom litigation, like we want to take a deposition of somebody, we're doing it by zoom, or even mediations, and how much of we've lost from not having just the casual interaction outside of the formal setting of the deposition. So not being able to just chat with somebody and build a rapport, getting the coffee, or waiting for the student, or the court reporter to arrive or waiting for the somebody to come in. And you're just you know, how many kids you got, oh, and, you know, to see the ball game last night or whatever, and that kind of report, we've lost a lot of that it's become much more sterile and transactional in the way we interact. I, if I don't know something in my office, and everybody is here, that walk down the hall, and we can have a chat with a few people and get some feedback, maybe find somebody else. And when we're all isolated, I have to decide whether it's important enough to zoom them figure out who they are. Figure out exactly what my question is and have everything in a much more formal setting. Whereas the organic, casual nature of life is so much easier and really got lost during that period. Does that answer your question?

Grace Luloff 09:50
Yeah. I have a follow up kind of about the clientele portion of it. Can you tell a difference in like clients Not willingness to participate, but like being comfortable participating in the process of like taking, like, are they more hesitant to share things or to I know, they're like under oath-

Gary Luloff 10:13
Well if you're in a room with somebody for I think it plays out a lot in places like mediation. I mean, so much of his ality, in litigation, so much is resolved short of trial. And usually mediation is one of the ways we do that. And you, you sit in a room with that person, usually for somewhere between eight and 12 hours, and a mediator comes in and out of the room. And then when the mediators not in the room, you're just there. And, and again, it's a lot of making small talk, but it's also an opportunity to kind of wear down the fears and hesitations of the of a person who's involved in a usually stressful thing. Whereas if you're, if you're on Zoom, and there's a break, we both get up and do something separate. Or I'll edit, you know, we can edit a document or they'll go off and you don't have that. Then interactions. I think it's made it harder to resolve issues. Also, because the courts are closed, largely. People are not feeling any sense of urgency to resolve things, the criminal backlog is going to be monumental in Minneapolis and the Twin City area. We're going to be resolving 2020 2019 cases in 2023. I think it's the there's so far backlog. And there's no there's no incentive for people to resolve their minor issues, they're misdemeanors which might require, you know, a little community service or or something that the company wants to do it so they can put it off or they can put it off and the courts, really no way there's no way to incent them, not to put it off because trial is not is not an option. When when the trial date when a trial date rolls around people decide they don't really want to do that. And we can get a resolution. But now things just...

Grace Luloff 12:52
And there's no there's no virtual trial happening. That's not a thing. You can't-

Gary Luloff 12:58
Not generally in the criminal context. I think there's concerns about constitutional issues on that. We're seeing some civil, some few civil trials. We're having hearings, appellate courts are still operating. probate courts are largely operating through through virtual hearings. But the criminal context is random largely to a halt unless and I don't know how they're exactly they're handling because I don't have those cases. But if you're an if you're in custody to no bail, you can't make bail, you're in custody and you demand a speedy trial. Constitutionally you have to have a trial within a fairly finite time and I think it's 10 days. They're fine. They found a way to do some of that. But I'm not quite sure how and I know they put even put those off for a while saying it's a reasonable time and there is no reasonable time right now. So you know some things are getting done and we're coming back soon but we lost we lost a year of a lot of the wheel we actually we we had limited in person court for a little while. Last year after maybe August or September, they put a pot plexiglass and there had very few people come in and we sat 10 feet apart and that was weird. And I think that helped a little bit, but it still lacked that ability to just inform or casually develop any sort of report.

Grace Luloff 15:20
Do you have any idea when the court when do you think the courts will reopen? And then do you think once that happens or workload is just going to? Or maybe not you're specifically or your firm's?

Gary Luloff 15:32
Well, the the, I mean, I'm seriously hoping to avoid where that where that is going to come, which is in landlord tenant issues. The eviction moratorium is couldn't cause a huge surge. When that gets resolved, which I believe is maybe under six weeks away, at this point, I can't I believe I heard a date. And I thought it was maybe in May, maybe it's early June. But that, there's gonna be a lot of that. And one of that sort of one of the unintended issues is you had a lot of really bad situations, you think of people not paying rent as landlord tenant issues, but what you're actually had, were people letting friends move into their house. And then you can't get rid of them. Because they'd be What if they're there long enough, they're considered a tenant. And the only way to remove a person from a place where they're a tenant is through an eviction, because we don't want people to throw people out themselves, that tends to lead toward to violence, we try to avoid violence. So it requires a legal process. So you've had a lot of boyfriends and girlfriends who have broken up and won't leave, because you can't make me let you sleep on my couch for six weeks. And now you won't leave. What are you going to do? The it's more than just the people aren't paying rent the eviction issue. Hopefully those will resolve once everybody realizes they're going to have to actually stand up in court and go, Yeah, I know, I haven't paid rent nine months, and you invited me out of the goodness of your heart. But I don't have to leave. I don't want to.

Grace Luloff 18:01
What concerns do you have about the effects of COVID-19 on your employment in the economy? More broadly?

Gary Luloff 18:11

Grace Luloff 18:16
Okay, um...

Gary Luloff 18:19
there's no, I mean, I'm a lawyer, people are going to continue to do stupid things and need me. There's no end to that.

Grace Luloff 18:31
Would would you say there's been almost has there been an increase in people acting outside the law? Or has it stayed the same?

Gary Luloff 18:42

Grace Luloff 18:43
It's stayed the same?

Gary Luloff 18:43
I don't think I don't think I've noticed any substantial change in the workload, do you then other than I don't have to drive to court. So I have a little more free time to do other things. Because we're not driving to court going through metal detectors standing outside of court, waiting, waiting for the judge to show up, waiting for whatever five cases were scheduled the same time as ours, to resolve saying 20 seconds worth of things and then going home. That's a lot of time that we're now saving. You know, the trade off for that is, as I said, we don't get the interaction. But it's way more efficient to just sit stay sitting in my chair and have the court come to me. And you know, there are 87 counties in Minnesota. Some of them are far away.

Grace Luloff 19:53
Has the pandemic affected the employment of any people, you know, are there any areas of law that are kind of, like seeing a hit or a big jump? or anything? Or is it all pretty-

Gary Luloff 20:11
I don't know. I I'm sure there's been probably some business law has slowed. But I don't know anybody. Any areas here, where what we do, and we do pretty much a little bit of everything has fallen off. I understand that the family law, the divorce is up, work is more busy as I think that some of the elder law work that we do, maybe his head a little bit less intensity. Because they don't, the older people don't want to use the technology and haven't been able to come down. And so they're putting it off maybe a little bit. But for the most part, I can't think of any areas.

Grace Luloff 21:18
Okay. Um, how has COVID-19 affected you and your family's day to day activities?

Gary Luloff 21:35
Think it's made my day to day activity simpler, in a lot of ways, there aren't options of I don't have I don't feel social obligations to go out and do things. So it's, it's a little easier to work, the work, come home, eat and do a few things. And I think it's simplified life a little bit in that respect.

Grace Luloff 22:09
And as well, with work, you don't have feel the need to go?

Gary Luloff 22:15
Entertain clients? Try to meet new clients? Network? Yeah, no, it's, it's great.

Grace Luloff 22:24
How has your family's day to day activities been impacted?

Gary Luloff 22:30
Well, I think the younger element is, this is harder on them. Because this is a time when you want to spend more time out socializing and meeting people and having experiences that maybe you're harder to have now. I think your mother is enjoyed having more nesting. And having family home more and quiet time without distraction with family. So that's been good. I've missed traveling. I think we've all missed traveling. That's about it.

Grace Luloff 23:31
How are you managing your day to day activities in your household? I suppose it's probably different from when we were there. You had three semi adult children all living at home, as well as you and my mother. I'm sure if that question would be it would have been a little differently when you were trying to work from home and it no longer working from home.

Gary Luloff 24:01
That was hard.

Grace Luloff 24:03
Yeah, that hard to focus?

Gary Luloff 24:09

Grace Luloff 24:10

Gary Luloff 24:11
And it was a lot of it was a lot of interaction. I think we all took opportunities to go for drives much more than just just for the sake of being out and being alone. Yeah, I mean, I think Henry ended up in Iowa at one point.

Grace Luloff 24:40
I I ended up across a I ended up in Redwing across the river, and I had to GPS my way back because I didn't know where I was. And then there was one point where we were exchanging random driving routes. I remember that. What have been the biggest challenges you faced during the outbreak?

Gary Luloff 25:19
I don't know. I mean, I think there's been I've had some, it's the only a concern to be careful more about my father who will be 91 in three weeks for that I didn't want to. I was wanted to be very conscientious not to bring the virus to him. Because I thought killing grandpa would be a buzzkill for the family.

Grace Luloff 25:54
How has as Grandpa is very much 91 is very much elderly. How has his routine changed and your routine with him changed?

Gary Luloff 26:11
His routine did not change all that much only because it didn't go out very much. But I think he went out the little bit that he did, he went less I think I made made it more of a point to go and just, you know, watch TV with them for a little bit, an extra day a week. But but not, I don't think I think he was other than the anxiety of feeling like getting it was a death sentence. I don't think it had much of an impact.

Grace Luloff 26:57
What have you, your family and friends done for recreation. During the pandemic, you can include details about shows, books, games, other things that you found, keep yourself entertained.

Gary Luloff 27:12
The best thing that came out of the quarantine, or Quarantine as lifestyle was that I set up a weekly card game with my college roommates. When I had my senior year in college, I lived with three guys. And we had a suite with like two bedrooms and a common room. And we would get done with school and we would play bridge till dinner, just sit and hang out like play cards. And they moved one is in Massachusetts, one's in Cal, California and one's not too far from for me. And we never you know, we've kept in touch and we tried to see each other every few years can but through the zoom and on online Bridge Program. We can play cards and have a zoom call going on on another screen and just hanging out for three or four hours on a Tuesday night. And that's been great.

Grace Luloff 28:31
Is that the most time you guys have spent together since college?

Gary Luloff 28:34
Oh god, yeah, we would we would go we would see each other we've usually you know, we'd go to someplace like Las Vegas or someplace every because wherever anybody was you can always get there. And we'd hang out you know, every 18 months or two years for a long weekend. But But yeah, it's it's been great. It's just comfortable and relaxed and it's a real nice time out of the world for me I've really enjoyed it.

Grace Luloff 29:17
So it's it's familiar and like just kind of comforting?

Gary Luloff 29:23
Yeah, and we've known I mean, these are people I've known for 37 years. So more 30 years. So you know there's it is comfortable in a way that is is is really different than just as relaxed, you know.

Grace Luloff 29:51
We established that your family, and we can make a small joke that I am your family, was home for I think like several months during the pandemic, did you and your family find anything to do for recreation to kind of?

Gary Luloff 30:11
I don't recall that we did really

Grace Luloff 30:16
That's fair. Maybe it was making and finding time to not spend time with each other

Gary Luloff 30:21
I think there was as much as anything was was trying to maintain some distance. So it's not to drive each other crazy. And maybe watch a little West Wing or something.

Grace Luloff 30:34
How are people around you responding to the pandemic? Are they cooperating with guidelines? Are they?

Gary Luloff 30:44
Yeah, I think most people I know are taking you fairly, have taken it fairly seriously.

Grace Luloff 30:52
And I know that are different, like different types of what I've learned as a college student, there's different types of serious, but you would say most people in your community are like, social distancing, that kind of thing?

Gary Luloff 31:07
Yeah. Yeah.

Grace Luloff 31:09
Have you seen the people around you change their opinions, day to day activities or relationships in response to the pandemic?

Gary Luloff 31:17
If they did, I didn't notice.

Grace Luloff 31:20
Okay, it was, yeah. social distancing, you know, you weren't really seeing people were paying attention to maybe what they were doing so much. Self isolation, and flattening the curve have been two key terms that have emerged during the pandemic. How have you, family, friends and community respond to requests to self isolate and flatten the curve?

Gary Luloff 31:51
I think I'm sorry, could you repeat that question?

Grace Luloff 31:55
So self isolation and flattening the curve have been two key ideas that emerged during the pandemic. How did you, your family, friends and community respond to these requests to self isolate or flat curve?

Gary Luloff 32:10
Well, I think I think most of the people that I know our family accepted the the the logic of it and then responded Yeah, I mean, I think there were, you know, established a risk, reward sort of the equation that said, Why, why am I risking? What What am I going to get out of, of not self isolating and not trying to flatten the curve that's worth the potential of, you know, getting this disease or keeping it compounding.

Grace Luloff 33:09
Has anyone you know, or have you gotten sick during the pandemic?

Gary Luloff 33:18
My brother tested positive and quarantined but I don't think he ever really got sick. He was infected. But I don't think he felt particularly was pretty much asymptomatic as far as I can tell.

Grace Luloff 33:37
What was your response to his positive test result?

Gary Luloff 33:43
Hm? Mine?

Grace Luloff 33:44

Gary Luloff 33:46
Oh, that's really too bad. You should quarantine.

Grace Luloff 33:53
That seems as you says, you said that you accepted the logic early on that seems like a fairly logical response.

Gary Luloff 34:01
Yeah, I bring, I'll bring you food and leave it on your doorstep and wait till I get my car before you come out and get it.

Grace Luloff 34:09
Moving on to a more hopeful topic on the vaccine um, did you receive the vaccine and if so, did you have any side effects?

Gary Luloff 34:19
I am two weeks from removed from having had my second shot. So I am free. My maximum immunity today I had a little reaction to the second shot. Kind of felt wrung out dehydrated headachy sleepy for about 12 hours. Maybe a little longer.

Grace Luloff 34:49
What was your experience getting access understanding what it was available making an appointment like for the vaccine

Gary Luloff 35:04
Did not seem particularly difficult, and it was fairly efficient.

Grace Luloff 35:12
Did you receive? If you don't mind me asking Johnson and Johnson Pfizer? Well, it was two shots at Pfizer...

Gary Luloff 35:18

Grace Luloff 35:19
Moderna? Okay, so did you have any concern about getting the vaccine? Or was it you?

Gary Luloff 35:28

Grace Luloff 35:28
No? Okay. It were I understanding the logic of it once again, was that kind of what went into that just like this is something that will end the pandemic?

Gary Luloff 35:43
I think the, you know, the testing the, you know, what I know of the process, it's made sense, the testing appear to been robust. The risk of not being vaccinated was clearly to me, greater than the risk of being vaccinated. So in that respect, kind of disregard the risks? Because not taking it was worse.

Grace Luloff 36:27
What have been your primary sources of news during the pandemic?

Gary Luloff 36:36
I watch some television news. I listen to some podcasts. I read various news sites, both American and The Guardian from London.

Grace Luloff 36:56
Do you have like a favorite or one that you find to be particularly reliable? The TV, the podcast? No?

Grace Luloff 37:07
So do you just kind of like combine them all together? Try and find the middle ground?

Gary Luloff 37:07

Gary Luloff 37:15
Trying to find what makes sense to me.

Grace Luloff 37:18
That sounds like a lot of extra reasoning. Rather than, you know, media sources, just having a reliable news source. But I understand that news resources always aren't always particularly reliable. Have your news sources changed throughout the course? Or were they different before the pandemic?

Gary Luloff 37:38
Nope. I think my process is pretty much the same. I mean, I think before the pandemic, I was making more of an effort to try to figure out how people who think differently than I do are accessing information because we've been in such an information divide in our country for the last well, it's been gotten presumably out particularly worse in the last five years. And so I've tried to make a point to read some conservative media online where I can to see if I'm, you know, to challenge my assumptions.

Grace Luloff 38:36
And you okay, so and now when you read the news, you are you know, long not no longer or has the purpose for reading the news become different rather than challenging your own views and trying to find the middle ground?

Gary Luloff 38:54

Grace Luloff 38:55
Okay. Um, you were a person that read a lot of news and like made that a point of their day before the pandemic. How have municipal leaders and government officials in your community responded to the outbreak?

Gary Luloff 39:09
I've been involved a little bit with the state action in closing down bars and restaurants for instance. And I think that the state did a decent job in a difficult situation, having to balance a lot of interests. constituencies I think they did this is very, it was very difficult and it was maybe not precise and tailored based on the fact that there's a lot of people in this state, and you have to can't have too many different rules. Like they did a decent enough job. We live in a town of 400 people and our local municipal leaders didn't have the opportunity to do anything.

Grace Luloff 40:33
I think we may have even been in a more dangerous area because everyone was out walking their dog. So I think we saw our neighbors more during the fits of the pandemic, which is somewhat comical. Do you have thoughts on how- We didn't our local leaders are my mainly changing the recycling bin brand. But state or specifically touch on state leaders, but how federal leaders are responding to the crisis? Do you have like opinions?

Gary Luloff 41:09
My intial reaction was was insane, anti-intellectual wish based. And was detrimental to the public health. Other than that, it was fine.

Grace Luloff 41:31

Gary Luloff 41:34
Other than the part where where we were told that it was completely contained in February would go away by itself and you didn't really need to do the things that we actually needed to do, you know, other than that

Grace Luloff 41:50
Do you think that the the federal government has gotten better over time? Or do you think we're still kind of in that space-

Gary Luloff 41:59
The federal government has managed to find a way to distribute more than 200 million vaccines In three months. I think that is better than saying it'll just go away on its own. And you should make up your own mind whether you want to, you know, worry about it.

Grace Luloff 42:21
Do you think that anti intellectual sentiment is still around?

Gary Luloff 42:25
Absolutely. It's part of our country.

Grace Luloff 42:31
Has your experience transform how you think about your family, friends and community?

Gary Luloff 42:39

Grace Luloff 42:43
The follow up is in what way? Is it you answer? (unintelligable) Why don't you think... (unitelligable)

Gary Luloff 42:56
I think I had a pretty good idea of what kind of people they were and who they were. I don't think I was wrong.

Grace Luloff 43:04
It hasn't changed your okay. It hasn't changed your opinion, especially on your community watching how people responded? Or did you kind of anticipate that?

Gary Luloff 43:13
You know, I've been a lawyer and in the community for a long time, I've seen a lot of stupidity in the world. And irrational behavior, and I didn't see any more or less of it through this.

Grace Luloff 43:36
All right. Knowing what you know, now, what do you think that individuals communities that governments need to keep in mind for the future?

Gary Luloff 43:47
I don't think it matters because I think we'll make the same mistakes. Because the mistakes we made were based on people's inability to understand risk or worry about the consequences that their behavior has on other people. I don't think we're going to reform human nature between now and whenever the next pandemic occurs. Sorry, that was, I'm sure the follow up question to that did not anticipate my response.

Grace Luloff 44:24
You know, I kind of figured when some of these were asking about your personal perceptions of people, I kind of figured that it wasn't going you know, I kind of knew how you were gonna respond to most of these things. Do you have any like has this? What are you like most excited to do? When like, the new normal of like, you can travel you don't have to worry about seeing other people and masks are maybe not a thing. What's like your big thing?

Gary Luloff 45:00
Oh, I I'm really excited to travel the I think the one of the things that has happened because of the and maybe this is a better answer for a previous question the responsibility of being making sure of staying safe has made most things. A process. That's a little bit like work. And I'm looking forward to a time when I don't have to worry about where I'm going, how long I'm going to be there. How far apart I need to be from people. Am I getting the right mask? And like staying clean? Am I going to bring something to somebody? There's even when your time isn't spent actually doing something you're I think the the being conscious of, of the need of maintaining your bubble is just a little stressful. I'm looking forward to being able to shake that at some point.

Grace Luloff 46:32
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Did you have any travel plans prior to pandemic?

Gary Luloff 46:39
I was really hoping to go to Spain to visit my daughter when she was on her Summer Study Program, which she didn't get to go to.

Grace Luloff 46:53
I'm sure that would have been shut, that would have been fun to go to Spain. But that's that's the big thing. Do you think that you'll keep playing bridge with your friends after the pandemic? Do you think that that's like, just the thing that's going to happen?

Gary Luloff 47:05
I do. It's funny, we, one of one of the four of us, was unavailable one one week recently. And we we got another buddy, who I haven't seen in 15 years. 17 years. Last time, we spent significant time together, we were celebrating our 40th birthdays. And I just turned 57. And we called them up and said, (unintelligable) out, do you want to play bridge with us on Tuesday, and it was great to just hang with him for another and I think we'll do that for a while. And frequency may may alter a little as you know, we had the opportunity to not be available.

Grace Luloff 48:03
Um, who was the who was the sub? Where? Where were they zooming in from?

Gary Luloff 48:12
St. Louis.

Grace Luloff 48:13
St. Louis? So you had...

Gary Luloff 48:15
Friend here from college who lived here who moved to St. Louis for business reasons 17 years ago, and we just sort of fell out of touch.

Grace Luloff 48:28
That's super cool that you had someone from California, Massachusetts, St. Louis, and then you know, yeah, definitely two people from Minnesota. That's that's really-

Gary Luloff 48:41
I will say having three guys in their mid 50s doing that was not lost on us that the last time we had played bridge together for instance, would have been in the 80s when none of this was even conceived.

Grace Luloff 49:05
Like you didn't know that let alone a pandemic, but it would be video calling to play bridge together. Any other remarks about the pandemic your thoughts on it your any experiences, especially as an attorney up anything just for an archive?

Gary Luloff 49:28
No, I think we covered it.

Grace Luloff 49:30
Well, thank you for your time. I'm going to stop recording this.

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