Tammy Wilkerson Hill Fisher Oral History, 2022/08/06

Self Desription: "I am an African American female. And I will tell you why that's important later on. I am a mother. I am self employed. But most of most of my work is around my family. And so I work, I'll say I'm self employed, and I worked part time, that's a better way of describing it. I'm also an artist, during the pandemic, I became a podcaster. And I am also a doll expert. And my primary focus is in how minorities, you know, in the DEI space, and having more representation with dolls. So that's how all of that's going to play in later with what happened for me, during the pandemic."

Some of the things we discussed include:
Starting a podcast during the pandemic about dolls; pandemic content in these podcasts.
A friend who made masks and sent them to friends and family before dying; difficulty determining cause of death: COVID and diabetes.
Changing messaging around masking.
New Mexico’s (Michelle Lujan Grisham) guidelines about numbers of people gathering during lockdown and the failure to consider large families in a state with many Catholics and Mormons.
The overrepresentation of BIPOC people in the service industry and COVID risk.
Motherhood as a blessing; race, immigration status and maternal mortality rates.
Having two adult children attending university from home during the pandemic; getting more time with family than expected.
Raising a child who was later diagnosed with Ehlers-Danlos and postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome; the expenses associated with trying to find a diagnosis.
Comparisons between general USA social support systems and UK social support.
The impact of the pandemic and pandemic-policies on Native Americans in New Mexico living in local pueblos; no running water; Navajo government.
Funeral expenses.
Nature taking back cities early in lockdown.
Giving up volunteerism during the pandemic.
Medical racism and distrust of healthcare authorities.
Younger generations choosing not to have children.
Obama’s election and racism in the USA; quiet racism getting louder and more public.
Police murdering Black people: Breonna Taylor, Sandra Bland, and George Floyd.
Black men who died by hanging being deemed suicides, including Malcolm Harsh and Robert Fuller (https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/06/22/black-victims-hanging-suicide/).
The murders of Muslim men in Albuquerque in 2022.
Avoiding routine medical care because of the pandemic.
Preparing to become an empty-nester as adult children return to campus for college.
How hard it is to comfort a stranger when you can’t touch; not interacting with newborns.
The importance of people in history.
The pandemic teaching us what it is like to live through history.

Other cultural references: Doll artist Jozef Szekeres’s podcast interview about living in China during the pandemic (https://www.inthedollworld.com/the-covid-interview-living-in/), Robert F. Smith, Oprah, Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Charles Dickens, Matt Colvin’s hand sanitizer, Meat Loaf (Michael Lee Aday), GoFundMe

August 6, 2022

Kit Heintzman

Tammy Wilkerson Hill Fisher

Kit Heintzman

audio

English Government Federal

English Health & Wellness

English Home & Family Life

English Race & Ethnicity

English Social Issues

activist

pet

doll

health care

children

friend

activism

African American

Albuquerque

artist

billionaires

Black

diabetes

dog

dolls

Ehlers Danlos

family

food

guns

hair

homelessness

intentionality

masks

minority

motherhood

Native Americans

New Mexico

pets

podcasts

police

POTS

queer

race

racism

slavery

touch

trust

water

Black Voices

Motherhood

09/07/2022

12/28/2022

01/18/2023

08/06/2022

Kit Heintzman

Tammy Wilkerson Hill Fisher

Albuquerque

New Mexico

United States of America

Audio

english

02:31:34

Starting a podcast during the pandemic about dolls; pandemic content in these podcasts. A friend who made masks and sent them to friends and family before dying; difficulty determining cause of death: COVID and diabetes. Changing messaging around masking. New Mexico’s (Michelle Lujan Grisham) guidelines about numbers of people gathering during lockdown and the failure to consider large families in a state with many Catholics and Mormons. The overrepresentation of BIPOC people in the service industry and COVID risk. Motherhood as a blessing; race, immigration status and maternal mortality rates. Having two adult children attending university from home during the pandemic; getting more time with family than expected. Raising a child who was later diagnosed with Ehlers-Danlos and postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome; the expenses associated with trying to find a diagnosis. Comparisons between general USA social support systems and UK social support. The impact of the pandemic and pandemic-policies on Native Americans in New Mexico living in local pueblos; no running water; Navajo government. Funeral expenses. Nature taking back cities early in lockdown. Giving up volunteerism during the pandemic. Medical racism and distrust of healthcare authorities. Younger generations choosing not to have children. Obama’s election and racism in the USA; quiet racism getting louder and more public. Police murdering Black people: Breonna Taylor, Sandra Bland, and George Floyd. Black men who died by hanging being deemed suicides, including Malcolm Harsh and Robert Fuller (https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/06/22/black-victims-hanging-suicide/). The murders of Muslim men in Albuquerque in 2022. Avoiding routine medical care because of the pandemic. Preparing to become an empty-nester as adult children return to campus for college. How hard it is to comfort a stranger when you can’t touch; not interacting with newborns. The importance of people in history. The pandemic teaching us what it is like to live through history.

Kit Heintzman 00:00
Would you please state your name, the date, the time and your location?

Tammy Fisher 00:04
My name is Tammy Wilkerson Hill Fisher. The date is August 6, Saturday 2000 whats this 2022. And that's all my location. My Location is Albuquerque, New Mexico, United States.

Kit Heintzman 00:23
And what time is it where you are?

Tammy Fisher 00:25
It is 2:17pm.

Kit Heintzman 00:28
And do you consent to having this interview recorded, digitally uploaded and publicly released under a Creative Commons license attribution noncommercial sharealike?

Tammy Fisher 00:37
Yes.

Kit Heintzman 00:39
Thank you so much for being here. Would you please start by introducing yourself to anyone who might find themselves listening? What would you want them to know about you and the place you're speaking from?

Tammy Fisher 00:50
So brief history from me is things that I think are significant, you know, as they play out in that, especially with the pandemic, as I am an African American female. And I will tell you why that's important later on. I am a mother. I am self employed. But most of most of my work is around my family. And so I work, I'll say I'm self employed, and I worked part time, that's a better way of describing it. I'm also an artist, during the pandemic, I became a podcaster. And I am also a doll expert. And my primary focus is in how minorities, you know, in the DEI space, and having more representation with dolls. So that's how all of that's going to play in later with what happened for me, during the pandemic.

Kit Heintzman 02:10
Tell me a story about your life during the pandemic.

Tammy Fisher 02:16
So, I think that when the pandemic first started, it almost felt like a joke. And you know, here we are years into a dislike, that would be some really bad joke. Not funny at all. But what started happening is, so we saw people, it was, we saw that there was something going on in China. And then it looked like it was starting to spread. And then we, you know, the they started shutting down country saying, we're not going to have any people like America, no people from China can come here. And then that the countries that were not allowed to come into the United States of people from those countries, those countries became more and more became numerous. As what was happening was the virus was spreading. So we saw that happening, but in America, we weren't really seeing it yet. And we saw people buying toilet paper. And so it was like this joke. It's like, they're saying this is some type of respiratory illness. Are they going to be blowing their noses? What What does? What's that about? So we saw people buying toilet paper and water. And it was just, it was like, What is this? This is just kind of crazy. And so it, it has this kind of humorous tone initially, because it didn't make any sense the way people were behaving. And then we started hearing more about it more about it, then, you know, that was in I think it probably started because they're talking about New Year, so probably started the top of 2019. And so, for me, when it started to feel real, was when they shut things down. And that was like April, I think it was like the top of April, end of March, early April, somewhere and then they started shutting things down. And here in New Mexico, our governor, Michelle Lujan Grisham came out with these really strict guidelines and they were you could not have more than five people anywhere. See significance of that is I live in a state where there are lots of Catholics. And there are lots of Mormons. And traditionally, people who practice those religions have many children. So when they came out with this rule that you cannot be out in more than five. There was this confusion. And I remember listening to the the there was a interview, I can't remember what you call, but he would go to a public interview where she was addressing the public. And one of the reporters said, Oh, but you don't mean, like, you don't like literally mean, five. You mean, like, if you have like, five kids, you and your partner, and your five kids can go grocery shopping? She said, No, I mean, five, you should not be in groups of more than five. So if you have five kids, then you got to figure out who's at home. Because all of you cannot come out. Now, you can be cited by the police. I don't know that the police would literally cite you. But you are, like technically, like breaking the law. And I can't remember exactly how she stated that. But you you are I mean, you can be cited so you weren't breaking the law. So people were talking about, well, what if we went to the park, it doesn't matter if you're at the park or the grocery store, you should not wherever you are, you should not be in groups of more than five. So that was really interesting. And then she says, You should choose one person, from your family, to be your designated person, so that you have fewer people out and about. Now, one of the other things at this point that had happened with the shutdowns was your children. Were not in school. Okay, so we're everybody's at home. So my husband, at this time, my husband is working from home, he worked for the National, he works for the National Laboratories. He is at home. And my children are adults. And they so one of them was in university. And she was at home. And then my other child started university actually during the pandemic. And that's another story. So how this stuff wraps back around on itself. So we were all at home. So my husband was our des our designated person. So he was the one who went shopping and those kinds of things. Now, New Mexico is one of the states where the Navajo Nation runs through. So you have the United States, and then you have like this. It's another government, that it's a Native American government, First Nations. And so it runs through New Mexico, and I can't remember all of the states, I think Arizona, there's some other states that it runs through. So our mayor contacted the president of the Navajo Nation and said, Look, this looks like this is gonna be big. And so they started working together. One of the things you need to know is that there are some of the Pueblos do not have running water. So one of the first things they told us to do, was that we needed to keep our hands washed, they did not know how things were spreading. So they said, Keep your hands washed, you know, cover up your face. Don't be around a lot of people, you know, just basically isolate as much as you can. So imagine how big of a burden it would have been upon you, if you did not have running water. And you had to go out and get water. Because you can't just, you know, go on to the bathroom, turn the water on and wash your hands. You have to go out and source water and they go out, they get water and they bring it back to them the you know, to their homes. So that becomes a big issue. Then another thing that happens within the Navajo Nation and some of the other pueblos there many pueblos here in New Mexico. But another thing that happens is there aren't many jobs in the Pueblos, you know, there are some touristy kind of jobs where people come in, but for the most part, people who live in the Pueblos, they are working in the cities, that's where most of the jobs are, so they are going out, doing their jobs and coming back home. So if you are any it whether you're Native or not native, and you have a job that's like a public service job where you need to be out, you are out and you are amongst people. So if you're like a health provider, let's say you work in a hotel, or will they shut down restaurants, but just that kind of, maybe you do janitorial work someplace, just bus driver, those kinds of jobs where people have to go to work those people, then we're having contact with other people. So what ended up happening was you have people going from the Navajo Nation coming back home, and, and they also tend to live in multigenerational houses. So you might be in the house with great grandma and grandma, and you know, just many generations of people all in the house together. So you come home with COVID. And your family catches it. So people who are less healthy, who are elderly, you know, there are certain populations of people who are more likely to get it. And so you'd go, someone come home and just devastate a household, because you've got so many people in there. And so it was really wild, you know, in America is, excuse me, it's expensive to bury people. And apparently, there's something that is supposed to happen with Native people where they're supposed to get money from the government to bury people. Now, I don't know if that happens all the time. Or if that's what happened with COVID.

Tammy Fisher 11:48
Anyway, we, the people did not get this money. So we were seeing all these GoFund Me’s. And it was so sad because you'd see, someone would say, Oh, my uncle died. And we need to bury my uncle. So you know, people were donating money to help bury their uncle, oh, my sister died, that same person, you know, my sister died, my brother died. And it was just, it was really heavy to see. So many deaths, and such a small population. So that was, you know, part of what happened. Then, as an African American, I said, I would tell you why that was important. We too tend to be people who are working in the help type positions. So we saw this huge death. Just we were just dying. And again, you a lot of us are in multi generational households. It's not uncommon, but maybe in America, it's not uncommon. But you know, for grandma to be there. So you've got a grandmother and she's out working and you got, the mom may may not be in the house, and you know, kids and but again, you seeing these households of people who tend to be and I, I'm speaking as an African American, but for those of us who are of color, those of us who are lesser educated, those of us who are more financially fragile. These were the populations who were being hit really, really hard. And it was devastating. So, you know, again, we have that happen. In my personal life, what happened was, I had a friend who was like a sister to me. She worked for the public transportation system in Denver, for RTD, the regional Regional Transportation District or something like that. RTD is the bus system. And she did not have the monies to be able to work from home, she was actually a call center worker. And so she, Francis was really beautiful. She would she loved love to sew and she'd love to give gifts. So Francis was making these cloth masks. That's what happened in the initial the was cloth masks that they were asking us to make and use the and so it became a way for us to were keeping ourselves safe from COVID. And we were supporting each other so there were people who lost jobs could not work. just that kind of, you know, people were just being impacted financially. So by purchasing masks from these people, we were able to help to support them. So Francis was one of these people who she still had her job. But she'd like to sew. And she was single. And so Francis was making masks. And Francis was sending masks all over the country to her friends and family and people she loved. And Francis passed, and it was really strange. She Francis was a vegan. And she was really into her health. And she went every year, they have this Nine News, health fair. And then she'd go on, she get her bloodwork done, and all that she did the right stuff, she took care of herself. Well, Francis died from diabetes. And it's like, how would Francis die from diabetes? It made absolutely no sense to any of us that Francis would have passed from diabetes. So we couldn't put it together. And then, you know, the story that we were told was, you know, she was, a friend had called her. And thank God that they had had that brief conversation. But Francis told her, you know, I'm not feeling well. Going to, you know, I need to call you back later. And Francis didn't hang up the phone, she just laid the phone down. Well, this friend tried to reach her for like three days, and she couldn't reach her. And this friend also had worked with Francis. So she called Francis at work and couldn't return she called so she called the manager and said, Hey, where's Francis we tried to reach her we tried reaching her for three days, managers like, I don't know, Frances hasn't come into work, she hasn't called in and you know, she's really responsible. So this is unusual. So the friend then calls the police, they go to house, they find Francis's body. So that was just really crazy. And we, through looking, you know, doing some research, one of the friends her husband is a he's a college teacher doing graduate level work, and he was doing some work. And one of the things that they found, they had not released out yet, I think it was early was that COVID could impact your your body and cause it to go into like a diabetic shock and the whole diabetes and kill you. So that's the only thing that made any sense to us with Francis. Her death certificate says she died from diabetes. But I think Francis died from COVID. And so then there became this whole long, I'll just tell you a little bit about it. But this whole long drawn out thing with Francis passed, she left everything to me and to grace to two of her friends. And so then, you know, the family was not happy that Francis did not leave them things. And so then I'm still dealing this is 2022 still dealing with Francis’ estate. But that was my first real COVID experience was Francis's death. So, a friend of mine and I had been talking about doing a podcast. We are both doll lovers. She is a history making doll maker, Georgia Taylor, and she did the big beautiful dolls. She and her friend Audrey. And Georgia came to me and she says, you know we should do this podcast. First she came to me years ago, we should do this doll show. And at that point, I didn't know anything about dolls. Just came to me, you know, again a few years later and said let's do this podcast. And I was like, Yeah, I don't know anybody. So then came to me like maybe a year later and said, You know what, you really do a podcast. I was like, Okay, now I know a few people. Let's do this. So Georgia had an idea. And I had a network and so together we created In The Doll World. So, In The Doll W orld, is a podcast YouTube channel that introduces doll lovers and doll creators. And it is it's revolutionary and that you have these people who are like celebrities, and they're celebrity doll makers. And for people who are not part of the doll world its like, what is that? How does that work? And so for people who are in the doll world, it's like, oh, it's like, you meet the Steve Jobs of the doll world, or, you know, these people who are doing these great things. And their history making doll makers, this one articulated the modern fashion doll, this one created the first art, 3d printed art doll. And this one created, I mean, it's just all these different people. So we ended up, I knew some of them already. And from that, and then from, you know, them introducing me to other people we go on. And so in the doll world begins, and my background is in journalism. So I saw when I saw what was happening, I realized what we were witnessing was going to be historically significant. So we started asking people about what was happening in their part of the world with COVID. And so we quickly we quickly became international. So we had people telling us about, oh, I was in China, I was in Ukraine, I was in Poland, I was and this is what's happening over here. So that became part of what we did.

Tammy Fisher 21:40
One of the people that we ran into was Jozef Szekeres, he is the creator of the GlamourOZ Doll, Jozef is significantly, historically he will, if you were writing the history on dolls, Jozef will be significant in that he created the first line of fashion dolls from Australia. He also has a position that is kind of controversial in that he created the first black doll from that was, you know, produced not like a single doll, but like from Australia. So there, there were some issues with people saying, you know, he shouldn't be giving money to the indigenous peoples because he made a black bun. So that that, you know, there's all that going on. And I understand we're indigenous, I understand that we need to support indigenous indigenous people. But it's not like, he's like this huge person who's making a ton of money. He's a doll artist. Jozef happened to be in China when COVID kicked off. So Jozef Jozefs Story is significant in that you know, what happened was country started calling their people back home from China. You know, if you're in America, if you're an American, you're in China, you need to, you know, come up out of there, because it's not safe for you to do in Australia, you know, you need to come up out of there. And he's like, No, I'm gonna stay here and do my dolls because he had been having such a hard time getting his dolls made that he decided to move to China, he says, I want my dolls to be a certain quality. And to make sure that my dolls are that quality. I'm gonna be here at the factory. So he literally lived in an apartment across the street from the factory where his dolls are being made. So when Australia called their people home, he didn't go and so he has this, Jozef has this amazing story of being there. And then it's like, it gets to a point where it doesn't matter whether he wants to stay or not, he cannot leave. So he tells you, you know about is as he was walking down the street, and they had these station setup where they would check your temperature. And he said, so like, there were only I think, to like, restaurant fast food kind of places open. And so he went to Kentucky, was a Kentucky Fried. Anyway, it was two American places that were open there. And he said he got his temperature tested. I think it was like three times on the way there three times on the way back. And in China if they if your temperature was elevated, they took you somewhere. So it was, you know, very concerning to be there. And Jozef said, you know, I could look out the window, and I would see the police would stop cars. And they would scan every person in the car to see if somebody's temperature was elevated. So they were really, it was scary, you know, to be in a situation where that's going on. And he said, you know, the only thing I had, you know, as far as feeding myself in my room, I had a, it was like, an electric tea kettle. So he didn't have like, a microwave or whatever. So he could go to, I can't remember if the shop was in the building it like, and the hotel that he was in or near, but he was saying, you know, so I ate a whole bunch of noodles, because that's what I could cook. So we had that happen. And it was just, there was some really beautiful things that happen within the doll world and talking to these people about their experiences and being able to it's like, being able to give voice to what they were experiencing, and to say, Yeah, it really is true, because I think for a lot of us COVID. And it's still, I'm gonna say for me, I still feel this way. COVID doesn't really feel real time feels different. The world feels different. And so we were seeing like these amazing things happening, like in in Venice, Venice. The water was really clear water hadn't been clear. I don't know, maybe since man have been there. But the water was really clear. I'm sorry I’m gonna let my dog come on boo. [Hello boo boo, hello boo. Good boy] So the water was really clear in Venice, and there were swans in the water and fish and oh, wow, look at what's happening in Venice. And then we started seeing dolphins, you know, in places like along the shore in Florida, and along the shore, near not in the Venice canal itself. But in you know, that area. Then we talked to people in some of the South American countries. They were like, cats, big cats like Pumas were out and I think I saw something where like, there were more Javalina out in Arizona. I mean, just we saw nature without us. In her beauty. And India, they were they were I think it was flamingos. It was there were all these birds. But it was she, it was like nature got a chance to celebrate. And to be free in a way that she hadn't been. And so long. And so many species were just like dancing and celebrating. And we were blessed to be here to be alive, to be able to see them doing these incredible things. So I thought that that was really cool. And that was you know, part of that whole In The Doll World Story. I left In The Doll World December of last year because I realized I was doing a lot of work for In The Doll World story meeting some wonderful people. I mean, it was a lot of fun. It was a blessing. But I wasn't able to spend as much time with my family as I wanted to, my children are adults. And so like I said one of them when COVID started was in university. Now both of them are in university, so they were both attending university from home. And I realized that there was this blessing that came with COVID. And the blessing was my family had this extended time to live together. And so I would hear my husband and my children laughing and playing games and whatever. And I was in here working. And I said, No, that's, that's not really what I want to do. Because for me In The Doll World was a project of, of love. I enjoyed it. It was interesting. It was fun. I learned a whole bunch. I didn't make any money. It wasn't about the money for me. And I think maybe if it was a money making thing, maybe I would have stayed there because I needed the money, I don't know. But anyway, it wasn't. And I'm blessed to have enough to be able to be home, I jokingly say, I've been on maternity leave for 23 years. So I don't have to work I can be on maternity leave. So yeah, that's you ask. I can't remember what the question was. But it was like I think about what happened, what, tell me a story. Okay, I gave you a whole book. [laughs]

Kit Heintzman 30:59
I’m so grateful. To the extent that you're comfortable sharing, would you say something about your experiences with health and healthcare structure, pre pandemic?

Tammy Fisher 31:13
Health, Health and Healthcare structure pre pandemic. So, I am an American, who was educated both in America and Britain. So I have a different take on, I think, on the health system because of that. So I'm going to say that as an American, who has lived outside of this country, and another country where they have free health care in place, I don't find the American health care system to be very friendly, and especially not to people who are impoverished. So and I think that the healthcare system actually impedes our people in that it. It hampers creativity and innovation, because you can't, you can't just go out there and just do research or whatever most people can't because they need to eat. So we don't have some of the innovation that we have, that we would have if we have free education. And one of the things that is sad about the American educational system. And the way we raise our children is that our children play more than children in some other countries. And that then sparks this innovation. And so it's kind of crazy. So you live in this country that sparks this innovation, but you don't have the support there to really nourish it and benefit as a people from that innovation. So that's my general take on that. Specifically, we have decent health care, we have decent insurance. Even so one of my children was diagnosed with a chronic pain condition. And that was about started maybe in 2006. And so we took the kid in, had all these tests done they couldn't find anything. That’s when my kid was six, at ten my child was hospitalized for chronic pain, they couldn't figure out what was going on. Again, we have decent health care. That year, my family spent approximately $20,000 on on covered things, so co pays, medicine. Eastern doctors just spent $20,000 And I don't know when people are going to be looking at this but I think that if you are a family can't remember is I mean $20,000 I think might be the it's like poverty level for family. Is it somewhere around there.

Tammy Fisher 34:40
So we basically spent a family's earnings on health care that year. I mean that so I'm just trying to say that it was it was significant. It was a significant amount of money. Thank God we have the money to do it. Um, but yeah, and that's how my doll journey began, I started selling dolls. Because I said, I got to figure out a way to bring some money and I can't go to work because this kid needs to go to doctor's appointments. In some weeks, my baby was going to doctor's appointments, they have five to seven appointments a week, you can't go to work and take somebody to a doctor's appointment. Because, you know, you know, with a medical system we have, and maybe this is how medicine works everywhere, I don't know. But doctors don't run on time. And that's probably a blessing because somebody needs more time than the next person. So your appointments at two o'clock, and the doctor doesn't see you till four. So when you're in that kind of situation, you don't have the same management, you'll have the same control over your time. So you can't go to work when you're doing that kind of thing. So I started selling dolls. So that's part of my adult journey. Now, my kid in let me say 2019 was significant for us. That was twenty, the pandemic kicked off in the beginning of 2019. So 2018, then was that significant year, we traveled back East. And this is I went back with my child who has a chronic pain condition. And while we were there, we spent time with some family, friends who are like family, I've known them since we went to university together. So we've known each other since we were teens, and we their children have some conditions like limes, and Ehlers Danlos, some of those kinds of things and they asked if my kid had been tested for them, and my kid had not so we come home, we have this kid tested and life changing things happen. We find that that kid has Ehlers Danlos and the type of Ehlers Danlos that they have is it's hypermobility. So they can't really treat hypermobility. What they do is if so, like with my kid, as they get older, there will be more issues with their connective tissue and their so their joints will be more likely to dislocate. So they may at some point have to wear some kind of braces or whatever to hold things in place. So and the other thing that we found that wasn't my kid had Potts and Potts is a it's a heart issue. And what happens is, your body doesn't move your blood outside of your torso. It shouldn't say it doesn't because it does but not effectively. So this kid was always tired. Always tired. And so they were tired, and it hurt him and we could not. So you know, I had to homeschool them because it couldn't go to school. And I saw them this kid's first word was book. As kid loved books, kid loves books. And it was really interesting to watch this child who literally started reading around two I know that that doesn't sound right. At 18 months, this kid started saying point the word when we read to them. And so during their second year, I said, you know, we weren't doing enough reading with them. It's time to start teaching them, you know, to read themselves. So I said, You know what, I opened the book and I said, What's this word? And it was like, dog. Second, another book was this word, bird. I'm just the kid just knew these were just like, Okay, this kid must have must have memorized the pages in the books. So I go to a word chart. And I say, What's this word? And I'm pointing to like colors. His kids like orange, purple. It's like how do you know those are hard words. And so my little two year old kid can read and it's like, okay, and when the other thing is like what this word chart, it wasn't like purple was in purple. It was all of the words were in black. So the reason that this is significant is I watched this child who devoured books and language get to a point where they couldn't read anymore for themselves. Then they couldn't comprehend when they were read to. So it was like like some huge part of their body, like maybe being paralyzed, or something would be the only way I could say physically how that would happen, because that can read. And to not only not be able to read, to not be able to comprehend we were rent to was really heavy. So that had kids last full year of school was fourth grade. And then went to fifth grade for a little bit, I think, a semester, then they went to middle school for a semester, I think that was seventh grade. And, again, just not being able to, to fully pull things. They were in a wheelchair because of the pain. And it was devastating. I mean, it was devastating. And they wanted to be an astronaut. And I remember having conversation with my kid, because they're very sensitive to cold. And I remember my kids saying, I can't, I can't be an astronaut. You know, because when you look at the training, a lot of the training is in swimming pools, I can't be in cold water. And there's just sadness and grief with that. So this kid you know, turns 18, and we all know what we're gonna do, because what do you do with someone who has officially has a fourth grade education? Now, thank God, my kid had had a very strong education early on. And we were able to teach them some things and then they gotten they would find things that they would be really interested in a lot of history. And so they learned some things on their own. And so we we did that and got the significance of the trip was, once this Potts was treated, my kid was able to read. And so it was really interesting to see how it was impacting our house, because anyone who, you know, walk past this cadence, like, your reading, and this kid would say, don't get too excited about this. Because, you know, I have times when I can do things, and then they go away. And so it was, we were really excited. But we, we had seen it before. You know, we had seen these bright, brilliant times this kid is flourishing, and then the next day the kids down. So that was it was hard. So when we go and we so now my kid is treated for Potts and starts feeling better, they the pain has not gone away. They've learned how to manage the pain and how to deal with the pain. But they've gone from existing as a person who you would probably I mean, like the first descriptor would be a suffer from chronic pain because it impacted every aspect of their life to

Tammy Fisher 45:01
You know, a young person who was starting to do these things. So one day this kid says, I want to go to I want to go to College. Okay? So how are we going to do this and because we got to get you something that says that you can do high school. And so so my kids really worried I don't know if I can pass this GED test. And just go, let's just think you can pass the GED to us. Let's just have you take a test AM's become like a sample test and see how well you do. And then if you do well, you take the test kid does extremely well. Thought we you know, we were not surprised about that. And then so the kid gets, my kid gets a high school diploma here, you can get a high school diploma or GED. So they got the high school diploma option and got accepted into in to art school, they want to be a concept artist. And so they started university over in during COVID, they are now a sophomore. And they've never been on campus. So it's really freaky, because one of the things about university, at least for me, and my experience was I got to stop being my grandmother's granddaughter, my grandmother was my primary caretaker. So I went to this other country, nobody knew my people, you know, I got to be anybody I wanted to. I got to it was just, I got to be me, I got to define myself without this outside influence. And so I've been really excited about my children having the same experience. And this little one is like my husband and I our conversations have been about should we buy a duplex so that they can have a place to live and have their own space in independence, but live next door to us so that when they need stuff, we can be there for them. And so, we've gone from that to this kid is flourishing, going to be in a few weeks moving to San Francisco for university. So that's brilliant. I mean, we're just like super super. Yeah, super, super excited. So that that's been I hope I answered the, what you said that. So that's been our experience with medical system. And again, we have because we do have insurance and we have decent insurance. My husband makes enough money that we have been able to we were able to successfully create a space for our child to have a life if those things had been different, I don't know how we would have done it. I don't know how you send a child to school who was in so much pain that they have to be in a wheelchair. I don't know how that works. You know? I don't know if you don't have health insurance and a lot of people in this country don't I don't know how you deal with your child crying and I mean, take my kid to the emergency room they'd give us Tylenol with codeine and my kid would come home and we'd like be watching TV my kid would be laughing and in pain that they would be high so yeah I I'm sorry for the American healthcare system. I think that as a people we deserve better. Okay, we'll get into some something else.

Kit Heintzman 49:40
Do you remember when you first heard about COVID-19?

Tammy Fisher 49:49
You know I told you that earlier with you know, I heard about it and it was like you know, watching people buy up toilet paper. It's like, what is this? This is really some kind of show right here. So yeah, yeah, it was. It's really funny. I think I might have said this before to COVID time. Sometimes it feels like COVID start yesterday, as sometimes it feels like a COVID started 50 years ago is so slow, you know, and then you asked me to tell you a story, bouncing around again. And this is about COVID, my next door neighbor had a baby. Now we will see the baby from a distance when they were walking. But one day, we have a wall like it's a concrete brick wall between our properties. And so they kind of sat the baby up on the wall. And, you know, we're probably 12 feet back and looking at the baby and whatever. And it was just Oh, yeah, we had invited some people over and I think it was like six babies. And they were all like, around six months old. And none of them had ever seen a baby before Oh, my goodness. You know, it's it's COVID time. My kids refer to time before COVID as in the before times. Yeah. Yeah. So you asked me if I remember, Yes.

Kit Heintzman 51:28
What was your day to day looking like in the before times?

Tammy Fisher 51:34
My day to day has not honestly changed that much. I am a spoiled brat here. I, you know, that is mostly true. But I didn't, I did go out and do some shopping and that kind of thing. Because since since COVID, I mean, like I said, when the governor said you should have one person, we still live pretty much like early COVID. And now, my oldest child, she has moved out into her own space on campus. She's here in town going to university, my baby is here. And so my baby goes out more than the rest of us, do. And, you know, there the pros and cons on that. How do you keep a you know, 20 year old person at home especially a 20 year old person who stopped really having much interaction with people in like fifth grade because they went to school halfway through fifth, you know, they did half a fifth grade half the seventh graders like how do you tell this person now, stay in the house. So they're going out more and they're wearing you know, their masks. So, yeah, I was out more get more interactions with, with friends. And but I I still, I guess I'm a homebody, I've always spent a good amount of time at home. But I did spend more time with friends. And I you know what else I did that I have have, it's really fun. I guess I hadn't thought about this. I used to volunteer a lot. And I haven't been volunteering I volunteered with, with a number of organizations, most recently with a group of people who work with immigrants or refugees. So you have these people who are coming into the country from refugee camps. And that's a whole nother thing, man, if you guys are looking for like you want to be capturing oral history. That's a brilliant place to stop and park, because you've got these people coming in. And a lot of them don't speak the language. So you've got the barriers. And then it's like, what happens to them when they come into the country, how the country treats them, is its own thing. And then you just sit and talk to one of them. You know, if you have someone who can speak English. I talked to this guy. He told me that. He asked me where I was from. And I said, I'm from America. And he says, No, where are you from? And I said I was born in Denver, Colorado. I'm from Denver, Colorado. It's like so your parents moved to America from Africa. And then you were born here. No, no, no, no, my parents are American. He's like so when did you come from Africa? You didn't? You didn't come as a little kid, you think you were born here? Did you? Were you? Did your parents come as little kids? I mean, he was just really confused. And I'm like, what is going on? And I said, Look, my African ancestors have been in this country since at least the late 1700s. He's like, Oh, you're an American. Yeah, yeah. And you know, my native people, you know, you start talking to Native people, and they'll tell you, you know, came up out of the ground, separate pools, we've been here. So my people being here, I'm, I'm American, whatever that means. And he says, Oh, he says, Well, I came here from I think, from the Congo. He says, I was in a refugee camp. He said, I was in that refugee camp for 20 years. But I was in another ref refugee camp for 20 years. And it's like this man. I don't know how old he was. He looked. I mean, he look like he was in his 40s. So I don't I don't know if he was really 40/60 I don't I don't know, what I was thinking. This man has spent his life in refugee camps, you know, and so that, that that's really interesting. If you guys ever decide to do something like that, I can hook you up with some people, because there's some Oh, there's some interesting stories there that should be I think, should be captured, and should help us to better understand where we are, especially like, 20 years from now, because it seems like they had been coming here and large enough numbers that I've been, you know, seeing them. And like maybe the last, I'm gonna say decade, but I think it's been less than that. And how they're being here impacts our country needs to be part of our old history, that that needs to be there, how they came, and how they are impacting the country and how the country is impacting them. So sorry, that I know I veered off on that one.

Kit Heintzman 57:14
You're still doing perfect. There is no bearing off.

Tammy Fisher 57:18
Okay.

Kit Heintzman 57:19
What's motherhood meant to you?

Tammy Fisher 57:26
Wow. That's a really good question. So I was raised by my grandmother. And I think so much of motherhood has been about grandmother hood. Because of my relationship with my grandmother. My grandmother was like, she was the backbone of my family. And because I grew up in her home, I got to see how these generations of people interacted with each other. My family moved from my so my, one of my uncle's was in the military. He got stationed in Colorado. Another one of my uncle's was really close with that uncle. So then he moved to Colorado, they moved there from Haytown Missouri to Denver, Colorado. So then one of my uncle's was had some emotional mental kind of issues. He was in a hospital. So they sent for him because they thought that he would get better care. So then, they sent for my grandmother, and my aunt and my mother, they were my grandmother's youngest two children. So what ended up happening is most of my grandmother's descendants ended up in Denver. And so you know, I had cousins and I, we just had people around you, my house, you would go to bed in your own bed, and you'd wake up and your cousin would be there. Or someone, we live in a lower income, inner city housing project. So there's lots of younger people in there having, you know, with children, so we all were like cousins. And so between my biological cousins and my neighbor, cousins, you go to bed by yourself, you wake up and then your cousin's in bed with you. You go to bed with your cousin and you wake up and your cousins gone because your cousins mom come and got them. So I had this really interactive house where people were in and out all the time. So For me, I guess it it's that whole thing about children being tomorrow, you know, and your children being a grand parents, your children being the parents or your grand children, I mean, your children be the parents of your grandchildren. What's really interesting though, is, as we look at the world and what's happening, I'm seeing more children not wanting to have children, both of my children are saying that they're not going to have children. So that whole thing about, you know, looking forward to be a grandparent, and all that kind of thing is, I'm having to reset that. And I'm not angry. I mean, I'm sad, and that we are living during a time, where people are saying, we are doing so much harm to this planet, that I don't want to continue to add harm to it. And I don't want to have children who end up in situations where the difference between the haves and the have nots is who has water, or you know, something like that. So that that's, that's really hard. But I, I've loved being a mother. Yeah, I love my children. And it's been an interesting journey. And I think I have learned at least as much from them, and continuing to learn as least as much from them as they learned from me. I learned so much about myself. And just, it's really interesting to love someone so much that you would really literally give your life up for them to say, I've lived long enough of me if I were to die today, and they could continue on. Yeah, I would give up mine for them. I, I love my children. And, you know, again, you go back and you look so much. So much of my experience is that I'm a black woman. And I think that often people don't I think if you are not part of a minority group, you don't understand how how much of being a minority how much of that is part of your identity.

Tammy Fisher 1:03:05
So you know, as a black female, especially growing up without growing up impoverished. Feels like the only thing you have is your children. And so that link then is really it's really something. And it's fascinating to give birth to a child. And it's not necessarily the whole birth process. That's that's real quickly, but to have something growing and living inside your body and moving around. Oh my goodness, that I think that being pregnant is the closest we get to God. That whole creation and then having that child and how you feel for it is as close as we in our limited minds and experiences can get to God. Yeah. Yeah, motherhood is a blessing. Sorry. I'm really enjoying this. Like, oh, I didn't know I felt that way about that.

Kit Heintzman 1:04:28
The last few years we've had so much going on that weren't just the pandemic. I'm wondering other than COVID-19. What have been some of the social and political issues on your mind?

Tammy Fisher 1:04:44
Oh, boy. So I guess we'll go back again to the whole minority thing. I think that as a country, we are starting to look beyond the space of white people. And so our history is a history of white people in this country, we don't really talk that much about black people. We talk about Dr. King and maybe Sojourner Truth in some Frederick Douglass, you know, but not too many more people than that same way with Native people. We don't really talk about Native people don't talk about Cesar Chavez in the Hispanic movement. And, you know, what happened with Shane in Cuba, and we are history and all, as I say, the Victor tells his story. And so we hear his story. And we are opening up and we are starting to be more open to others stories. And I think that it's it's becoming a good thing. Ask me the question again.

Kit Heintzman 1:06:07
These past years have been much more than just the pandemic, what are some of the other political and social issues that have been on your mind?

Tammy Fisher 1:06:15
Okay, thank you. Because I was thinking I was way off point, way somewhere else. So we come back. So one of the things that I've seen some research go into has been how women are faring during and after birth. And we're seeing numbers like black women are dying, or four times more likely to die from, you know, pregnancy, postpartum kind of things are for likely, four times more likely to die than white women. And the numbers are really interesting, when you look at, we're talking earlier about the refugees, immigrants, black women who are coming from other countries, their numbers look more like white women's numbers. But their children's numbers look like black people's numbers. So what's happening in this country? That is making it so hard for black woman to have children. And and why do we see this change? You know, why we see this change with people who just if it was just because we're all black, if you came here from Nigeria, you should be having the same death rates as I have, but you don't. And then we've seen you know, the Black Lives Matter movement. And that's been that's pretty hard. What have my children said to me, because my, one of my children is an activist, my one of my kids in his in the LGBTQ plus space and has. It's very active. And my children are also biracial. And it's, it's interesting to have discussions with this kid, because this kid says, I understand that, if I were to straighten my hair, I would look like I was a different race, I would not look black. And if I move someplace where there wasn't as much sun, I would be white passing. And I understand that there's a privilege in that. And so we've had some discussions about that. There were for a while. There were people being hanged. They just didn't find this person body hanging and can't remember what it was like three young men in a short amount of time, during the Black Lives Matter. were hanged. And there's the oh, they committed suicide. Okay, why are you hanging themselves to commit suicide? What? What is this what why are people and so my kid said to me, you know, Mom, I'm an activist. I said, Yeah. You know, mom, they could kill me. Somebody could come and hang me. One of the hardest things about the conversation was I couldn't say, oh, no, not you. I couldn't say no to you. All I guess I'll tell my kid was the chances of that happening to you are very slim, the chances of that happening to any one person is very slim.

Tammy Fisher 1:10:16
And I'm sorry, the human, we are experiencing this, I'm sorry that they've experienced this. I'm sorry that I said that it's very slim. I don't see that as I don't think that that's something that you like really, really, really need to be concerned about. Like I said, I think for any one person that was hard. That hard, you know, I couldn't say, I mean, I guess I could have said, well, it won't happen to you, but I don't lie to my children. And there was something in that discussion where even for myself, you know, it's like, yeah, my kid could be hanged. I could be hanged, you know, right now. They haven't they're not using the term serial killer. But we have someone in Albuquerque, some one, some people, some group, I don't know, who will appear to be targeting Middle Eastern, or Muslim that’s what that's what they have had in common. They're Middle Eastern, and they're Muslim. And since November, they've killed three of them. So they seem that the police is now saying that there is some pattern, they believe that all of these deaths are associated with each other because they just seemed like just random acts of violence. And that's scary. To think that there is somebody out there targeting people because of the way they look, or they worship. The last one is just 27 years old, 27 year old guy. He I don't know if he was elected, appointed into one of the smaller adjacent, you know, cities to ours. And he was going to be moving into housing that they got the housing for him there. He was living in this. I have a kid who's down by campus, he was living down by campus, and he apparently went outside to talk on the phone. He lived in a house with his brother and his brother's children. I don't know if there was like the mom of the kid. I don't. But at least that's who was in at least those people were in the house. And the brother thought he went out to you know, just call home. Because they're from the Middle East. He realized he'd been going for like hours. So it calls the police and he says, hey, my brother's missing and and they're like, No, your brother's dead.

Tammy Fisher 1:13:16
It's scary. It's scary. And it feels like you know, so, we got COVID Now they talked about monkey pox. It just feels like it just piles on. You know, got Breanna Taylor who was killed by the police. And they said they went to the wrong household. She ended up we had a young man who was jogging and people killed him with young black men who just jogging and get just George Floyd Sandra Bland it's really hard. And you know, then we got the school shootings. Oh, you don't know how happy I am. My children are not who Lord have mercy. I can't imagine being somebody with a little kid and the little kid has to go to school because you gotta go to work. And again, it's the whole thing with the chances of something happening to you are slim. Think about how many schools there are in America. You're good. You have a chance of something happening to you. Except it happens to people. It happens to people. I remember when Obama was running for president that's when I started seeing a big change in America.

Tammy Fisher 1:15:04
We know people are racist. And that's just part of our history. And that's how we interact with each other or don't, or whatever we would, even if we're trying not to be, you have to work really hard in this society because it is just set up. And but when we look at it, though, it's set up for all of us to not be successful, or most of us, I mean, look at the beauty standards. You know, they finally had given Barbie a doll, it's a body that's like human ish, in proportion to people trying to look like Barbie, and Barbie would look like a monster, she more human. So we have these non human standards for beauty. And, you know, so we, all of us are living in some kind of world that says I'm lesser than, and I think that, that has a lot to do with how we then interact with each other. Because nobody wants to be at the bottom. So at least I'm not a woman, at least I'm not black at least I'm not Jewish least I'm not Muslim, at least I'm not a child, at least I'm not an old person. At least I'm not handicap at least I’m not [inaudible]. We're all living in a space that says that there is some person who was all things. And we, none of us as individuals can be that thing. And I think that that then helps to spark all of this other stuff that happens, you know, the racism, the sexism, the because we have that mark there that we're all striving to get to. But I'll go back to when Obama was running. I never saw racism in America. Like that. I had seen some racism in Britain that was like wild and crazy. And I kind of got an appreciation for it. Because you know, who was doing what? You know, this dude over here, he's with the National Front, look how he's dressed. Don't mess with him. He won't mess with you. And everybody's good. But in America, everybody wants a Quiet, quiet. And that's what they say when they are together. And they tell those jokes, and they do that.

Tammy Fisher 1:17:34
And then when Obama ran, it wasn't quiet anymore. And so my kids were in this brownies group. And Girl Scout, they I don’t know or some Girl Scout brownie, some of them little ones. And the group leader had to contact the parents. What she told us was what her apology was. I'm really sorry that the girls are talking about Obama eating babies. You know, I'm sorry, that that's the discussion. And you know, we need to stop sorry, if your kids have heard that, or where do you know, if your kids are saying that you need to tell them that we need to have discussions with our kids. So I talked to my kids, I was like, yeah, here's something about Obama eating babies. No. So okay, so they knew enough to understand not to tell the black kids that. And so I told my kids, you know, this is a really crazy time when people are really like geared up for this election. I want you to understand, I need you to believe because I need to believe this, that the people in this country are concerned and intelligent enough to elect somebody who will make the best decisions for us. You don't have to worry about that. That's what the grown people are doing. That's what we have to believe that on mass. That's what's going to happen. We are not going to elect a baby eater. You know, you don't have to be worried. So if you're hearing any kind of crazy stories, that's somebody's fear. That's not yours. My kids went to a little alternative school And it was part homeschooling and part school school. And they did a lot of things like they had, they had had, you know, elections in the past where you could vote, your kids would say, Oh, I'm gonna vote for this one vote for that month.

Tammy Fisher 1:20:14
People were so wound up, they couldn't do the election. They couldn't not do the election. They had to stop a class one day. Because they were reading something. And I think it was like black history. And one of the children said, I hope Obama is assassinated. Like, where'd that come from? What were elementary school kids talking about Obama being assassinated? Why you got to stop the little, little kids class because some kids talking well, he must have a moment to be assassinated. What? What are y'all talking about? I never seen that anger, the anger. And just watching people on Facebook, you know, you can't be my friend, I'm not gonna be your friend like, we not gonna be friends with you. I had someone who I was, I thought I was really good friends with, you know, parents at school. And we were doing something the kids were going, you know, doing something the parents were there for the the event. So there was me. And there was another couple. And this guy, I don't think his wife was with him. She might be I don't know, it was not significant. He walks up to me, and he says, because I think there was a couple me, and then he came over. And he says, You're gonna have to be crazy to vote for Obama. It's like, how do you start a conversation like that? We're talking about whatever we're talking about, you don't even know, and it aint about Obama. You just walk over here and just just say, yeah, that'd be great. What do you, get outta here.

Tammy Fisher 1:22:05
I never seen. And I didn't think that people that I knew would do that. I thought that those were all other people. That I don't know who these other people were, but I didn't know. And then we get Trump run for president. And Lord have mercy. I mean, honestly, if my children weren't here and doing University and my husband, you know, if we could just like walk, I don't know that we'd be here. I'm sick and tired of America. I am sick and tired of America. And maybe the worst thing to do was leave, maybe we need to stay here and fight this battle. I don't know. But I'm sick and tired of America. tired of people saying hateful things about each other, doing hateful things to each other. You can't trust the police because the police did this. And it's just like, who do we trust? What would it be? You know, you need to have a good guy in the room with a gun, the good guy in the room, good to protect everybody else. Why do we need to be carrying guns? It's we're broken, America is broken. And the gun lobbyists have too much money in control. And it's like, these people who are hateful, have infiltrated like every aspect of the country so you cannot just assume that somebody who is in the leadership power or who is a police officer or officer whatever, you can't assume they're doing the right things. I just heard something about these three police officers. I can't remember where they were. But they I think they had to let all three of them go they were having a conversation about black people. And about you know what they were it was like they were actively like we should like we should like actively do things to them. Like we should kill them. It's like why are you a police officer? What do you do? Why do you just randomly want to just kill people? Because of the color of their skin? I don't know. Oh, just crazy. Oh, yeah. We're talking about movement. It's just and you know what? Maybe all of this is a good thing. Because if we did not have these bad things that happened and and Now we've got like the internet. I mean, you can get your news within minutes. If we did not have the internet if we did not have people with cell phones. I think a lot of these things that are happening, people will be saying, Ah, not on, they're making stuff up. So maybe it's good that we're having this because maybe it's it's we're turning stuff up from, you know, the bottom, turning the trash over. And we can clear some of this stuff out and air some of the stuff out so that it's better for everybody. But Lord knows it is hard right now. This is hard. This is just hard.

Tammy Fisher 1:25:43
And you know it's sad. But it's the truth, that I'm really happy. I don't have any sons. I can't imagine being the mother of a black male in this country, right now. We are all having to deal with some stuff, but who more it seemed like black man, they're not getting a break. I cannot imagine. You know, because like I said, my kids are at the age where we want them to be able to just go fly and soar and do their own gig and who out don't be afraid for my son. Not that I'm not afraid for my children but not like for a son. That will be scary. Okay, I keep taking us down these dark path. I'll tell you some good maybe it's all good.

Kit Heintzman 1:26:56
What is the word health mean to you?

Tammy Fisher 1:27:03
I’m liking you guys questions. Health. So I think of I was gonna say people, but I think of all living things as having a connection. And so for me, health is the ability to find peace and joy. And it's not just about the body. Because you could have a body that if you ran it through tests, the body bodies, you know, pretty perfect. Everything is where it should be, working the way that we expect it to work. And you could be miserable. So that I wouldn't say that that was healthy. I would actually say somebody who was happy with a body that functioned I don't know how to describe it in a way that's not oh God. I was gonna say normal, what is normal, but you know with, with this with a body that is at dis ease. How about that? I would think that a person who was happy living in a body that is at dis ease is actually healthier than somebody whose body is not at dis ease. So it's it's it's about being able to make your own choices. Being free and happy. And yeah, being able to to experience some good things that's that's how I would define health.

Kit Heintzman 1:29:21
What are some of the things you want for your own health and the health of people around you and how do you how do you think we build a world where it would be possible to attain those things?

Tammy Fisher 1:29:30
Okay, so what are the things that I lets break it down to me again?

Kit Heintzman 1:29:37
What are some of the things you want for your own health and the health of people around you?

Tammy Fisher 1:29:42
So, so for me I want to pick to a point where I am living more with intention, I have gotten to a point where I do a lot of comfort eating. So I would I need to be more conscious and thoughtful. Yeah, more thoughtful. And so what I want for me and for the people who around me. But that's the kind of thing that I would want. You know what, also I would want as far as if we're going to go into health, I would love to see it. If we have free health care, everybody, not just the people around me have free health care, nobody in this country should be, I don’t think we should be hungry, I don't think we should be under educated or experiencing like, body negative body issues, the DIS ease, we have so much money here. It's It's sad that we have all this money, but the money is not going to the people. So that's what I would like to see. I would I would like to see mental health care. Just just free. Free gyms so that people could go and workout. I would like to say we have to so many stores in America are throwing out food stores and restaurants. I would like to see that food going to those in need. You know, here. If you at least, the store by me, I don't know every store in the city is doing this or not every grocery store. But the grocery store in my neighborhood. They have free food. And anybody can just go in there and eat it. And I don't know. I had a conversation with a manager one night. I don't know if that had anything to do with it or not. I was in the store and three young men were in there. I shouldn't say they were boys. And I don't get there. I wouldn't I don't think any of them were teenagers. I think they were like maybe 8 to 11 or they were young. And they were eating out of the bulk food containers. And so I said to them, technically what you guys are doing is stealing. You guys don't want to get in trouble for stealing. I said I'm assuming that you're hungry. And that's why you're doing what you're doing. I said Are you hungry? And the little one said yes. The other was like no, no, no were not hungry new the little one said I am. I said Okay, call Oh man. I said let's go over here because I have these like pre made lunches that's like a sandwich and a piece of fruit and maybe some cookies and a little kiddie drink. Okay, come over here. Let's go over here and let's get you. Let's get you one of these right here. You choose whichever one you want. So he chooses the one he wants. So tell the bigger boys. If you're hungry, I will buy you something to eat. All you have to do is just choose what you eat because I don't feel like I should make you eat something. I think you should eat what you want to eat. So choose yourself, I’m not hungry, I’m not hungry. I said look you’re in here eating out the bins you're gonna get in trouble. You apparently are hungry. Okay, so the little boy says I'm not giving you my food. Because I'm hungry. I buy food for the little one. And I talked to the manager and I say, Hey, I'm really concerned, children in here and they're eating out the bins. And I think we need to figure out some way for these kids to eat. They should not be getting in trouble because they're hungry and wasn't much longer from that time to when they started giving out free fruit. I don't know if they are connected or not. So again, you go into the produce area, they got free fruit. And I talked to the guy in the produce area and I tell them I thought that was amazing. That's great. You know people shouldn't nobody should be hungry and it's healthy food and yeah, he says the other thing is you know when he says it helps us as a store because a lot of people end up leaving because you You know, they pick the kids up from school and whatever, and their kids are tired, and they're crying. So they ended up leaving the store early. So if we can give the kids something to eat, then it keeps that blood level. And he says, You know, I've had people like, they go up to the front, and they have a whole bunch of free fruit. And so the front calls me and says, like, there's somebody up here with 10. Bananas. He says, I just say, give it to him. We have enough bananas that everybody can have some bananas. And another thing that I've noticed that they do, it seems like when they have a plethora of food, like, let's say, they got a lot of zucchini, and they'll put zucchini in like a little, like a whole net bags, like where you get oranges, something like that. And they have them in a certain area, and they'll have a mark down. But they're not like, oh, I mean, if you go and look at them, they're just like zucchini. So I don't ever shop from there. Because I, I don't. I don't feel like that's for me. I feel like there that's for people who can't afford to pay. I don't know what zucchini cost, I just go into store and buy them. So whatever zucchini costs because you know, it's not like you've been staking. And I think that the country and the world would be a lot better off if we live that way. So that those of us who it goes back to like taxes, if everybody was taxed in a way that was based upon their real money. We'd have a different country, because we could then afford healthcare for everybody. America wouldn't be way down on the list. When it comes to education. We could have some of the best education in the world. I mean, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos and Warren Buffett got enough money between the three of them to take care of the rest of us, you know, Oprah got billion. Robert Smith got billion. Yeah, tax people the way they should be taxed so that the rest of us can, can live so that people aren't living in food deserts. That's another one its like, Oh, my God. Yeah. Okay.

Kit Heintzman 1:37:36
How do you think we make that version of health accessible to everyone? What do we need to change as a society so that we make those changes that you want to see made? How do we get there?

Tammy Fisher 1:37:53
I really think that the way we get there is through our children. We need to start teaching our children that we are responsible for our brother. So hopefully, by teaching children, that you know that we bear some responsibility, when they get to be older, they will be more willing to help. So I live in a city where we've got a good number of homeless people, apparently, you know, that's part of the whole COVID thing. There's a lot more homeless people, people lost jobs and whatever. And so they've been talking about, you know, what do we do with all these homeless people? Where do they live? And so they're talking about doing some encampments? Oh, no, no, not in my neighborhood. Not not in my park. They can't live up in my park in a tent. And it's just like, Oh, my God, where are they supposed to live? Everybody's saying, No, you can't live in my neighborhood and a tent where they're supposed to live. If we all took some responsibility in said, it is on us to make sure that everybody has food. Everybody has a place to live. It would, it would be very different. And the only it seems like and maybe I have some ignorant, childlike view of the government. But it just seems like the government will be where these things would happen, because that's where the money funnels to. So maybe we could set up some nonprofit organizations or something that got money from the government and they were in you know, cities and whatever, so that we could see this money being dispersed out to those in need, and not like that. Just in some big places, okay, here's here in Britain, you can get other things at the post office like, I remember when I was in uni, people went there and they got, I don't know, you must get some kind of form because I didn't get it. But some kind of way. Their glasses had something to do with the post office. So what if? Because we've got post offices all over the cities? You know, that's a real common thing. What are the post offices had a I don't know. So you could go to the post office and get a voucher for free food, or maybe we paid the stores so that people could come in and get certain things? I don't know. Maybe. Instead of stores, throwing away things, stop throwing away food. Why can't we give it to some other organizations? I remember being a kid, there was this Payless shoe store. That was that's where we would go and buy shoes. And they would take a box cutter and they would cut shoes. Put them in the trash. What would you put? Put a box, cut the shoes out and put them in a trash? What? Why would you? I mean, it's like, I don't understand it would make more sense to give the shoes to the goodwill. Maybe you don't want people coming in and getting your free shoes from your store for free. I mean, I don't I don't know. But yeah, it all of the stuff. I think it starts with the kids. We are all responsible and we can all live better. If we see ourselves as being partially responsible. I have seen a change in my neighborhood. I live in a more affluent neighborhood. My next door neighbor, she's moved they move. But I used to live next door to a doctor and across the street was a dentist. And so you know lawyers, that's engineers. That's where I live. Okay. So when the economy changes my comfort changes. So when the economy is bad people come to my neighborhood. So I live in a neighborhood now where most of us have locked mailboxes. When I moved here, we didn't have locked mailboxes. A good percentage of us have a ring I don't I'm home all the time but a good percentage of us have ring doorbell things so you can see who's on your front porch. We could all live better if we all lived better and I think that if you were somebody who has more money then you could spend in 100 lifetimes because that's what we're talking about these people and their money you should be able to live very well on your money and help other people so teach children that we're responsible for each other that we should we did it and even if we have to do it in a selfish way you live better if I live better. Your mill is okay if I have enough money to feed myself I should not have to be preying upon other people because I don't have nor should I be sitting at home starving because I'm not going to commit a crime so yeah, I think it starts with our kids

Kit Heintzman 1:44:15
What does the word safety mean to you?

Tammy Fisher 1:44:28
Safe means the ability to be free and happy to not so it's I guess that's the way I would define it. And then if I had to go back and say what it is not. Is it is not it's not fear it is not Yeah, I think I'm gonna say it's not fear. It's just the ability to just exist and to be as long as I'm not harming anybody else, you know. It'd be happy and free, you should not be fearful to go certain places or like as women, you know, there are places like, it's not, it's not good for us to be out at night alone. You know, that kind of thing. Safety is just being enable, it's like that, to have that. To live with the innocence of a child to not have to be worried about things. And you know, I know people, I couldn't teach my cases, but I know people tried to teach their kids stranger danger. My kids didn't do stranger danger. They just, they could not comprehend that somebody was trying to do something to them. They that's the way that's safety. That's health. Yeah.

Kit Heintzman 1:46:17
There's been this really tiny, narrow definition of safety or ideas of what is safe under the confines of COVID. So how long keeps themselves safe from a virus? Eenie, tiny microcosm, what are some of the things that you've been doing to keep yourself feeling safer?

Tammy Fisher 1:46:40
Well, I guess the first thing we're talking about physically, has been try trying to stick to the mandates that the governor gave, trying not to spend a lot of time with other people, you're trying to stay close to home and to not interact with very many people. So that's been the first thing.

Tammy Fisher 1:47:16
The next thing has been, and maybe I should have answered this earlier, but it falls into here, too. I hadn't thought about it. There are medical things that I have not done. Not that I it's not that I'm sick. But like, I haven't had a mammogram in a while. You know, those, those preventative cares, like, yeah, I could go and get a mammogram and I could get COVID Well, I'm not I probably am not in need of a mammogram. And I don't think I have breast cancer. But those are the kinds of things like I didn't get my teeth cleaned. As often. You know, it's like, I'm not going someplace and taking my mask off. So it's like, I'll have to have stinky teeth or whatever, until I cannot [inaudible] teeth into just that kind of maintenance. That's it. The physical maintenance, because even with glasses, eyes need to be up in people's faces. In the glasses, I'm good. I'm good. So that's happened. Another thing is I've had to learn to develop support systems in a different way. So like, I I joined a group where we have writing prompts, and we, you know, write about, you know, things that are going on in there. It's very helpful. I think, one of the recent writing prompts that I really, that really, like touched me was what is your morning routine? Is it healthy? And if it's not, what can you do to make it healthy? Just those kinds of things to just really think about what's going on. I love having that support group. And so it's a group of people who, you know, not related. It's all come together. And we all love and uplift each other. So I've had to do things like that go online to find family. Also through In The Doll World, you know, and having these people from around the world. I Again, I got this support group. I am seeing a therapist and I'm seeing my therapist online. And so I have that too. So, and I have I, I have friends from every point of my life, who are still part of my life, like I can say, Oh, I've known this person. I met them when I was in elementary school. And we're still friends. I met someone in middle school and we're still friends and I met this woman, and, you know, friends around the world and the people I went to uni with in Britain, I still have relationships with them. So a lot of my health support kind of has been just, in some ways, honing in moving in deeper with those who I knew, and then expanding out to find like minded people. So I think you answered that.

Kit Heintzman 1:51:02
How are you feeling about the immediate future?

Tammy Fisher 1:51:08
Oh, I wish you had’nt asked me that question today. Okay, I'm gonna be honest with you. I am afraid. I am excited. I'm afraid because I told you this running joke. I have been a, I've been on maternity leave for 23 years. And the baby's going to university. I don't know what I look like without a kid. I don't know what I don't know what that means. I don't know. What life is without a kid. The last 22 years of my 23 years of my life I've been in an incubator for a baby. Or a milk maker or the teacher, a comforter my life has been about babies. So as an artist, I go by the name teach. And so I had my kids when they were little they weren't in school yet. And so we'd go and we'd be hanging shows. And I'd have them with me. And I called myself teach party of three. Because my kids were always there with me. So I don't know. And like I told you, I left In The Doll World. So I gotta figure out what what does this mean, as this person who was the stall expert to get this show started and leave? And so what do I do next? And there's a part of me that feels like I need to just like, because I know my kids leaving. In a few weeks. I feel like I need to fill up all my time. But I need to nod. I need to take some time to just think about thinking and to just sit and whine and go and to just try to figure out who Tammy is what Tammy likes to do and do some of that.

Tammy Fisher 1:53:45
Okay, here you go. There we go now lets see how long he stays out. My dog is always on the wrong side of the door. He opened the door he let him out. He's like, Oh, yeah, now I'm on the right side. He turned around it looks like currently. I'm on the wrong side. So sorry. I digress. So yeah, for me, I think so I am, I am afraid but I'm also excited. I'm excited for I'm excited to get back to being I said not back to but being an empty nester. I mean, I, I miss my husband, I adore my husband. And I'm excited about just hanging with my husband I'm excited to see what I'm going to do. I've been doing some things I've been getting back into art. I've been sculpting dolls. So I'm excited about my creativity.

Tammy Fisher 1:55:02
There's also there's also this, we were talking earlier about things. And I was telling me about being a grandparent, well, my kids were saying that they're not going to have kids. I don't know, they might, they might not. There's a freedom in them not having kids. There's, you know, there's burden. I don't want it to sound like a horrible burden. But I think for most of us who have children, we want to live live in a manner that when we leave, we leave them with something. And if my children don't have children, I don't have to be concerned with leaving my grandchildren. Something, not that I shouldn't leave my children anything. But it's different when you have to be responsible for you, as opposed to you having to be responsible for children. So if they have no children, when we die, what we have goes to our children. And we don't have to say, Oh, we have to, you know, let's be thinking about what we're leaving to Little Timmy. No, there's no little Timmy. And the same thing with our kids. So when they get whatever we leave, they don't have to worry about leaving something for Little Timmy so they can go and hopefully do something that they really want to do. And that's pretty cool. You know? That, that's cool. It's cool to have grandkids too. But that's one of those where all endings sound good. Took me a while to get there. But I'm excited about however it works out. I'm good. Yeah.

Kit Heintzman 1:57:13
Has your relationship with your dog changed at all during the pandemic?

Tammy Fisher 1:57:16
My dog? That's a, that's interesting. So, okay. From the vantage point of me and my dog, no, really, because we've been hanging in here, my dogs, we've had our dog for 14 years. So that's my dog. So he still comes and talks to me and tells me like when he wants to eat or whatever. Now, from the vantage point of my family, I think his relationship with the family has changed, because everybody's here now. My husband has gone back to work, and my oldest daughter has moved out. But that's, you know, recently my oldest daughter moved out in June and my husband, when did he go back to work? I can't remember, when he went back to work. It's been like the last three months. So their relationships with him have changed, where they're having to do more. I guess for me, I guess I'm not having to feed him as much. There are more people around. So if he wants to go outside, I don't have to do that. So I guess it's been less. Not the right term was burdensome, but I have had less responsibilities with him. It's been more of a shared responsibility with him being home. So I think I think that that's a fair way of describing it.

Kit Heintzman 1:58:58
Does your relationship to touch changed at all over the course of the pandemic?

Tammy Fisher 1:59:15
That's a good question. I that is a really good question. Because it's making me think. I don't know. And the reason that I don't know is that I tend to be in the house. So to think about when I am outside, because that's where Yeah, and it's probably changed because I'm a HU. It has changed. Let me tell you what happened. I was, I took my kid, my kid went and changed their name recently, and so I was out. There was this lady outside the building, just picking up rocks. I'm like, why is this lady picking up rocks? So, when I asked was like, Why are you picking up rocks? And she said oh I’m picking up rocks because I'm an artist and I use rocks in my art. I was like, Oh, that's cool. So we just started talking. But I mean, that's me I have a friend is someone I haven't met. I mean, when a stranger is a friend that I haven't met yet, because they're all friends. It's like, hi, that’s my best friend, just like a little kid. So, but we ended up talking, and this lady just opens up to me, and it's not that I'm not used to that because that is how things happen for me. I don't know what that's about. It just I walk out the bathroom with a new friend. I don't know what it is. Maybe I listen, I don't know. But she starts telling me all these things about herself. And she starts crying. And I so want to just hold her and tell her it's gonna be alright. She's okay. But it's COVID and I can't touch her. So yes, yes and even like the baby you know the next door neighbor. It’s, a baby. You want to touch the baby. You want to smell the baby you touch a little toes. But no. I don't want to be responsible for the baby being sick. So, yeah, there's a lot of Yeah. And I think that one of the things though, for me, is my kid and I have the kind of relationship that is very, I think it's much more physical than a lot of other peoples relationships are so like, when we watch TV I'll reach out and I’ll hold my kids hand [inaudible] kid I don't know if my kid likes it or not. My other kid doesn’t as far as I know, doesn't not like it. I mean, whatever it goes, you know, so we'll watch movies and I'll hold my kids hand and my husband and I you know we hug and kiss and so I think I get my again a lot of affection from the people in my house. But yeah, that outside it has and and and like I said it's painful because man I wanted to touch that lady I wanted to oh, I still wanted to hold her i so i i Just so wanted to hold Yeah.

Tammy Fisher 2:02:48
Okay

Kit Heintzman 2:02:51
What are some of your hopes for a longer term future?

Tammy Fisher 2:02:55
Whoh I can't say everything I think

Kit Heintzman 2:02:55
You can, you can.

Tammy Fisher 2:03:12
I first thought, Jesus, come down here shake these people until they can stop tearing up stuff and fighting. Stop all that hatin. Love everybody that's the first thing that came to my mind. So if Jesus gone come and do that, then that's my first thing. So if that's not what's going to happen, then again, I guess it goes back to that understanding our interconnectivity between us between not only us as a species, but with all living things and taking responsibility for that. Because once we embrace ourselves and our relationship with this planet upon which we live, and understand that she provides for us our everything, our water, our food, that we should treat her with respect, and do all that we can to help her so that she can better sustain us. So yeah, that's that's what that will be.

Kit Heintzman 2:04:42
Who's been supportive of you when you need support during the last couple of years?

Tammy Fisher 2:04:54
My family, my sister and I number of siblings, but I have my sister who my mother has two children. And that sister and I are very close. So my sister has been there, I have a cousin who was like a sister, she's been there and my husband, my children, got lots of friends, have a therapist and got a new therapist, because my therapist and I knew we needed to, to need to change our relationship. So got a new therapist I really like my new therapist. Yeah, my neighbors if I need, I have. I have my support system is really, I've got good support says I've got a great support system, in very many ways, because it's very diverse. And in every way, it's diverse, and people who have different religions and different thoughts, and it's diverse in economically and ethnicity and race and their people in different parts of the world. So if I woke up at three o'clock in the morning was having a hard time I have people in other parts of the world and I could call who are up. Yeah, so I got my support system is pretty, I got a good support system. And like I said, I joined that other group. So I mean, yeah, good, is when it comes to support.

Kit Heintzman 2:06:51
What are some of the things that you've done to take care of yourself?

Tammy Fisher 2:06:55
Other than eating chocolate?

Kit Heintzman 2:06:59
That's a good one.

Tammy Fisher 2:07:05
You know, I love my hair. I really love my hair. So I've been playing with my hair. That's one of the things that I do take care of myself.

Tammy Fisher 2:07:25
There's so many things that I'm not doing to take care of myself. I recently said in my group, when we were talking about that, what do people do, what's your morning routine look like? And I said, I have the morning routine that every 10 year old envies I have the whole day that every 10 year old envies. I get up when I get up and I do what I do. And I don't what I don't. And for better for worse. That is the truth. And so if I don't want to I don't. So maybe that's part of how I take care of myself. But I am also aware that by not doing what I don't want to do, I end up piling stuff up for me to do at some point. And I have to do it. So there is that. And I also love dolls, I love talking about dolls, I love thinking about dolls, I like looking at dolls and learning how to sculpt dolls. I like watching the doll sculpting shows and like the repaints the I'm fascinated by dolls. I love dolls. So there's that. And music. I love music. I love music. And it's just music. I mean, I love music, all genres. And it's not like I love every singer. I like them all the same. There's some that I like more than others.

Tammy Fisher 2:09:03
But I love music and flowers. Yeah, I used to not let my husband buy me flowers. I used to just like that's just a waste of money. They've been cut. They're dead. You just, it's just a slow death. And then one day, my kid and my husband went shopping and my kids said you should buy mom flowers. He’s like nah, your mom doesn’t like flowers. My kid convinced my husband to buy me flowers, [inaudible] of flowers and I was like, Oh, I really like these flowers. So I think I must really like flowers too. And I want to get back into gardening. I got lots of rose bushes outside lots of the people who lived in my house who had it built. They must have been like masochist or something. 30 rose bushes on my property. Nobody got time for that. Ain't nobody got time for that but they smell good. And every once awhile I'll go out there and start hacking at them because I don’t know if you know how to take care of rose bushes but you're supposed to cut down you know the flower down to one of the five leaves. And nobody got time to do that with thirty rose bushes. No.

Tammy Fisher 2:10:28
I mean no that's not for teach. Oh, I know another thing I’ve been doing that’s good for me. Is that the, are we on that question? Oh, good. I started buying myself clothes. I have four. Oh, probably the last. Well as long as I've been on maternity leave. I've been wearing T shirts and jeans or sweats or sweatshirts. So I'm starting to wear some other clothes. And I bought myself some shorts recently. And I was like, oh, wait a minute. I like this I like these shorts. So I am starting to buy myself some non sweatshirt Jean t shirt clothing. So I'm doing that too.

Kit Heintzman 2:11:29
What do you think scholars and associates in this social sciences and humanities, so departments like film or literature or sociology or poli sci, what should we be doing to help us understand the human side of the pandemic?

Tammy Fisher 2:11:46
What you're doing. Talk talking to people. You talk and you listen. There is, one of the things that I find most interesting about this interview is it is healing. Because you know, I know that deep down. I feel a lot of sadness. Maybe anger too there's anger and disappointment about things that haven't happened because of the pandemic. I also feel that way about things that have happened because of the pandemic like Francis's death and talking, not only am I telling you about me my experiences and those kinds of things, it's getting me to think about some things and it's like, do I really feel that way? Oh, I forgot about that thing. So that's good. And that's healing cause it’s just just to be able to just talk and say, Yeah, I feel this way. You know, this is, this is really how I feel or to tell you a sad story. Because it's like, you just just walk down the street. Well, the lady picking up the rocks told me your sad story. But I think most of us, don't just walk down the street and tell people our sad stories. So that's healing. So I think that in doing what you're doing, you're not only capturing what's happening, you're helping people to make sense of their own unique experiences. And giving them a chance to talk about them. And that is healing. So I thank you for the interview. Yeah.

Tammy Fisher 2:14:12
This is my last question.

Tammy Fisher 2:14:17
Oh, do I want chocolate? Yeah.

Kit Heintzman 2:14:24
I'd like you to imagine speaking to a historian in the future, someone far enough away that they have no lived experience of this moment as they go forward with their research into the pandemic and 2020. What would you want them to be sure they don't forget about this moment as they go forward and do this work? What do you want to be sure does not get forgotten by them.

Tammy Fisher 2:14:54
So so often, we talked about this earlier, history is told by them victor, I want historians to make sure to look at how the pandemic impacts the people who are voiceless, who don't have access to monies and health and that kind of thing. I want them to talk to minority communities like, I have a friend who has had COVID twice now. And when she got it the first time, I asked her, did she get your booster? And she told me no, I didn't even think about it. So she got it the second time I said did you get the booster and she said, No, I have a cousin who got it. She got COVID and she got sick like a dog. I want people to, to talk to people and want them to understand why especially black people are impacted so strongly. And part of it for us is we are afraid. This country has a history of using us as guinea pigs, we see this country using people in Africa as guinea pigs. So we are less likely to do some of the things we are harder group of people to convince, to do these things. And like I said, we a lot of we lost a lot of us, you know, we we were the ones who had to go to work. I want historians to understand that. I want them to understand that impoverished people really hit hard, you know, before we got this vaccine, those are the people and then we had, you have to understand, you know, I don't even know if you can understand. You have to look at Trump and the decisions that he made, and why he made them. Because when we first started experiencing COVID, it tended to be in democratic areas. And Trump didn't seem to be too concerned about us. He didn't tend to be too concerned about that population. And then it's like a started, you know, everybody's getting it. So oh, look, this is Oh, it's not just in New York, or oh my god. People dying and dying in such numbers. They can't even put them in the ground. They got them in the trucks that put people's bodies in the trucks in the like, trucks that you would move food in because you got to keep them cold. And they got to and yeah. Yeah. You have to look at you have to look at how it impacted people. But those people whose stories we don't normally tell those people who tend to be absent. Make sure that their stories are totaled. Make sure that you look at the history of masks. We were told to create and wear cloth masks. And it wasn't I don't think until this year, that they said oh well. That was supposed to be a temporary thing. That those masks can't really keep you safe. I mean it keeps safer. You should be wearing you know the K the KN 95’s or. We didn't know we didn't know that. I’m angry about how the government did not take care of the people how the DIS honesty you know that with wearing the mask and then the whole fighting about who gets to make the the vaccine and where the vaccine come. Yeah.

Tammy Fisher 2:19:57
That needs to be looked at in the fear the general fear that people had people just, you know, saw people in Italy, there on CNN and what they were singing, singing, and that's another thing, the beauty, the blessings that came out of COVID Make sure to, to look and see. Because I think that one of the things that the historians will see, at least if they look, is it was, like one of those Dickens sentences, you know, from was it can’t think of the book is the best of times the worst of times. Because there are some beautiful things that happen. There's some beautiful things that happen. And I have to remember that there's been it because I've been talking so much about these bad things and horrible things. But like I said, my family was all home, you know, so we got to spend time together. Yeah. Look at the people look at the people, and how it impacted the people. Make sure to break down those numbers, and look at what they mean. So know, it's like so this many million people died, how many of them were impoverished? How many of them more of color, how many of them were disabled? How many of them, you know, look at how it impacted groups because you're going to find that it impacted different groups differently. Like I said earlier with, like the Native Americans, when you've got people who some of these people are living, you know, multi, multi generational houses, and they don't have running water. And they're being told to wash their hands. How something as simple as that impacted them. Also, look at the strange thing. God knows we are weird species, the guy who went out four miles from around his house and bought up all the hand sanitizer, and you know, the, the, what you call those surface wipes, like Lysol wipes, you got his whole garage, filled up with all that stuff, then you can't get rid of them, you can take him back to the store. Nobody wants his stuff back. He was trying to sell them and he was trying to sell them for way too much. You got to look at those people. You got to look at the people who you know, we're gonna make their millions on toilet paper. Yeah, they're buying all the toilet paper, you can get any. You got to see them that because there's got to be some humor in this too. You know? Because, I mean, I know I was laughing It's funny.

Tammy Fisher 2:23:15
Yeah, the human condition that COVID Every aspect of the human condition, you can look at it and see it in COVID but it's like it's like it's come compounded or, you know, because it's like, oh, look over here. This This is hilarious. You look at this, oh, this is so sad. Because it's a grief, you know, then you have this children who are being born and you know, the the babies that have seen each other look at the joy of seeing each other, every single aspect of the human condition walk. And I think you will see that if not every almost every aspect of our condition has been blown up. During COVID The love the hate people angry, we're angry about COVID we're angry about and then it's just like everything came together. You know, black lives matter now. We got the whole thing with Roe v Wade, and you you know how abortion and it's just like, you know, it's heavy, it's a heavy, it's heavy. But you know, also it's going to be like amazing. I it's interesting to live through history. Because by living through this, I think I have a better understanding of my elders and our movement you know, the black movement. I think I have a better understanding of what that was like of some of the things that they dealt with. Because of COVID, it takes everybody down to their pace. You know, you don't have enough money to not die from COVID. Now you can have an n, you can not have enough money to make you have to be out there and be more likely to die from COVID. But you can't you don't have enough money to not die from COVID you'll have enough money to not catch COVID You don't have enough money to not have to be sheltered in your house. In some ways, it made us one. That's kind of cool. had thought about that before. The common Boogeyman. Okay, I talked your face off.

Kit Heintzman 2:26:01
I want to thank you so much for the generosity of your time and the kind beauty of your answers. Those are all the questions I know how to ask at the moment. So right now I just want to open some space. If there's anything you want to talk about that my questions haven't made room for. Please take some space and share it.

Tammy Fisher 2:26:24
I'll talk to you about a whole bunch of stuff. I'm trying to think if there's anything I didn’t. Yeah, I just I think it's going to be important, like I said, to break things down. And to look at the stories from different vantage points, because I think that that's going to be really interesting when this is over with and to see how many like I think that I have I don't know if I have developed am developing like a fear of going outside and part of the reason that I have that fear is because I have been so well sheltered because my husband has been the one who's been out doing grocery shopping and whatever. Like I told you, I wanted to hold the lady I am touchy. And so I I have to really I have to be not me when I'm in public if that makes any sense. Because I want to touch everybody. I want to Yeah. Yeah. So when this is over with what we'll do, how many of us are going to be in the house and unable to leave? And it has been good to have even you have doctor's visits online. It is good and in a safe. But there's a flipside to that because like me, I don't I don't know when I will ever feel okay to go out without a mask. I could see myself five years from now. Still wearing a mask and that frightens me that frightens me. And I can see myself wearing a mask for different reasons. One, I pray that they know enough about COVID that we're getting shots like we get flu shots and it's not a big deal.

Tammy Fisher 2:29:12
But also, it’s true, there's a sense of distrust. There is a sense of I have a sense of distrust because on the one hand I understand people saying oh I don't want to wear masking. I wore masks for however long I lived you know wear masks when people decide not to wear a mask, it's like guys you're taking my life you're you're possibly impacting my life. By choosing not to wear a mask for whatever reason you are choosing to not wear a mask And I think that the majority of the people who are not wearing masks are doing it because they don't want to wear a mask. It's not because I know there are people who have breathing issues or whatever. I mean, there are real reasons why you shouldn't wear a mask but yeah, it's it's kind of scary to think that there are people out there who is not wearing a mask. Wonder how many of them ended up like meatloaf? You know meatloaf? He wore a mask and then he's like, Oh yeah, I'm done. I'm not wearing a mask anymore. I'm tired. I'm not I'm not living like this. So he died like that. You know, not wearing his mask COVID ss deep I guess living is deep. Yeah. I can't think of anything else. Thank you for that. Like I said thank you for the interview. And thank you for giving me this time to reflect and analyze my feelings and my fears and things I look forward to. It’s been good. It’s been a good thing.

Kit Heintzman 2:31:32
Thank you so much.

Tammy Fisher 2:31:33
Thank you