Shae Havner Oral History, 2021/12/10


Title (Dublin Core)

Shae Havner Oral History, 2021/12/10

Description (Dublin Core)

In this interview, Shae Havner discusses her experiences as a mental health therapist during the pandemic and the changes in her career and her clients. She talks about how the pandemic affects mental health, both positively and negatively, and the rise in domestic abuse cases. She also gives insight into how COVID-19 affected her home life as a mother and how the pandemic has affected her sons as well as what her family and friends did to have fun during the shutdown. She lives in Fall Creek, Wisconsin, and works in Eau Claire, Wisconsin, and compares how the two cities responded to the pandemic. She also brings up vaccinations, the booster shot, and getting her children vaccinated.

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Contributor (Dublin Core)

Partner (Dublin Core)

Type (Dublin Core)

oral history

Controlled Vocabulary (Dublin Core)


Curator's Tags (Omeka Classic)

Collection (Dublin Core)

Curatorial Notes (Dublin Core)

Date Submitted (Dublin Core)


Date Modified (Dublin Core)


Date Created (Dublin Core)


Interviewer (Bibliographic Ontology)

Julia Nelson

Interviewee (Bibliographic Ontology)

Shae Havner

Location (Omeka Classic)

Fall Creek
United States of America

Format (Dublin Core)


Language (Dublin Core)


Duration (Omeka Classic)


abstract (Bibliographic Ontology)

In this interview, Shae Havner discusses her experiences as a mental health therapist during the pandemic and the changes in her career and her clients. She talks about how the pandemic affects mental health, both positively and negatively, and the rise in domestic abuse cases. She also gives insight into how COVID-19 affected her home life as a mother and how the pandemic has affected her sons as well as what her family and friends did to have fun during the shutdown. She lives in Fall Creek, Wisconsin, and works in Eau Claire, Wisconsin, and compares how the two cities responded to the pandemic. She also brings up vaccinations, the booster shot, and getting her children vaccinated.

Transcription (Omeka Classic)

Julia Nelson 0:02
Perfect. Okay, so my name is Julia Nelson and I'm a Public History student at the University of Wisconsin Eau Claire. Today is December 10 2021, and the time is 2:45pm. Currently in the United States, there have been 49,458,520 cases of COVID. In end in Wisconsin, there have been 905,850 cases of COVID. In the United States, there have been 790,766 deaths in in Wisconsin, there have been 9,298 deaths. And then finally, for the vaccine overall, in the United States, there have been more than 475 million doses of vaccine administered with 60.4% of the United States population being fully vaccinated. And also 60.4% in Wisconsin alone. Um, just to start out, could you say like your name? And then do you mind sharing some demographic information like race, age, gender?

Shae Havenofear 1:06
Absolutely. My name is Shay Havner I am 38 years old. I'm Caucasian, and I am female.

JN 1:17
Perfect. And then on a day-to-day basis, what are like the primary things you do? For example, like your job? That sort of thing?

SH 1:25
Okay. Well, what I do for work is I'm a mental health therapist. So I do individual counseling, counseling with couples counseling with groups to help people with any struggles that they might have along the way.

JN 1:42
Perfect. Yeah. And then back in 2020, when you first learned about COVID, what were your thoughts about it? And like, how have they changed since then? If they have?

SH 1:53
That's a great question. So I think when things first started happening in 2020, there was just a lot of anxiety and tension, because it was so unknown. You know, we—we hadn't experienced anything to this degree. So, we didn't know so many things, how it would affect our job, how could we continue to serve people if we couldn't meet with them? How do we, you know, a parent or kids who are going to school? Like how does this all work, because we didn't really have any recent happenings to base it off of, and then it became the unknown of how long does this last? How long do this. So I think there was just a lot of anxiety around not knowing what things were going to happen, what wasn't going to happen, and how this was going to look when things first started in 2001.

JN 2:55
Yeah. And then, since then, or maybe during the beginning, what concerns you most going into that besides, you know, the unknown, after a little bit, after we learned a bit more what started worry you the most about it?

SH 3:09
I think, you know, certainly wanting to protect vulnerable populations. You know, I'm not in a high risk category that we figured out pretty early on. I'm not elderly, I'm not immunocompromised, I don't have any lung issues. So that didn't concern me as much. But I was concerned about our vulnerable populations, especially our children, and especially my children. Because, you know, as a parent, you want to keep your kids safe. You want to protect them. And this was something that other than staying home and trying to take precautions, I felt like I couldn't protect them from so that was difficult.

JN 3:55
Yeah, that. Yeah. Um, and then, with your job, you mentioned a little bit earlier about your job, how did it? How did COVID affect your job, like, in what ways?

SH 4:07
So COVID affected my job in numerous ways, some of them positive, some of them were challenging, I think positively, we have really leaned into developed and made connecting more accessible for people who maybe have differing physical abilities or different challenges to meeting in the same physical space. So that's been great in terms of like the technology has been there to some degree, but we haven't really been utilizing it a whole lot in my kind of field because the preference is for in person meetings. So that was helpful. We didn't have travel time, you know, to any appointments or to the office or anything like that. So you could kind of go from one thing to the next. And I think that was helpful to try to stay grounded in, you know, containing risk. So those were positive things, I think the—the challenging parts were, that as part of my job as a therapist is to not only be hearing what people are saying, but to read their nonverbals. And so, you know, I can see somebody's face. But if they're not, if they don't usually use their face to express things, maybe they talk with their hands, or maybe they would be, you know, their leg would be bouncing up and down. Or maybe they'd be more fidgety. You know, it was difficult for me to assess that. And a lot of times, I was assessing people for suicidal risk. And so, you know, that's a pretty high stake, it's an important decision I have to make. And when I feel like I don't have every piece of information I can possibly get that makes that decision that much harder. And some of my job was in hospital. So then it became, how do I do my job in the hospital setting? What are they allowing right now? What are the guidelines right now? What are the guidelines for my employer as well? And again, how do we continue to serve people to the best of our ability, if, you know, I'm video chatting there in the ER, I'm here at my house. And I'm trying to connect with them through a screen when they're in a really difficult moment. So I mean, I think that and kind of just fluctuating expectations and guidelines and mandates about what, what is acceptable, what's not, or what is the best practice in dealing with the pandemic? I think that's been difficult, because when those things change, I mean, change is hard. And certainly, when you have change on top of change on top of change, it becomes more and more difficult to adapt, and keep up and know what—what you need to be doing and what's going on in order to keep everyone safe.

JN 7:14
Yeah, wow. Yeah, I can't even imagine. And then for like, as a mental health therapist, like you mentioned, have you noticed any changes maybe more or less mental health problems with clients at all? With COVID?

SH 7:31
So, so there are both challenges and positives. The positives would be people that tend to be more introverted, or get their energy from, you know, other spaces.

[Shae’s son enters the room]

SH 8:07
Yeah, so I mean, the positives in terms of mental health were that people who are introverted, were feeling more understood, better supported, they weren't feeling so exerted because they weren't having to go out and into all these situations with large groups of people. I think it also helped people in determining what is a priority and what is not in their life, and they were able to look at, you know, if there's this risk out there, if I have to choose what am I choosing to keep in my life, what are some things that maybe don't need to be in my life, and so people were able to sort some of those things out not be as busy. And I think that helped a lot of people's stress levels and anxiety that there weren't so many demands, that there was this overarching understanding of this is a really difficult situation. And we're all going through it and we're all in this together, and we need to give each other a little more grace. You know, whether that's being more patient, giving someone more time being more understanding and empathetic. So those are the good things mental health wise that I saw. In terms of struggles or challenges, certainly people who are have other means are more extroverted or more social is a very difficult time. Because if you get your energy from being around other people, and suddenly you can't be around other people, that can be really, really isolating. It can be scary, it can be lonely. It can certainly increase depression and anxiety for some people as well. I think that it was difficult for people to figure out how to connect, especially at first, have, you know, if you do something every day, if you go to coffee with a friend, or you stop by your neighbor's house, to check in on them, how can you do that now? And how can you do that safely. And people rose to the occasion, and they found different ways to do that, but I think it was hard for people mentally to adjust. And I think, again, it depends on what type of person you are. But some people were very, very happy doing things from home, they really enjoyed it. They've carried that through. And some people it was too much, especially folks that have issues with ATD or ADHD, where they're easily distractible. It was really difficult because maybe they had to work from home and help teach their children from home and, you know, work out at home or whatever they need to do. So yeah, definitely, definitely a challenge for some, just because there's an depending on your living situation to there were a lot of risks, right. So people that are in domestic violence relationships, or children that are being abused and neglected. Home is not where they want to be homeless dad injuries, and so to have no outlets to not be able to go to school to tell a teacher what's happening, or not be able to go to work and confide in your coworker, hey, I'm not safe at home. That really, really escalated those concerns, and also kind of alcohol and drug use was certainly something with increasing concern during this pandemic. We're trying to self-medicate to cope with some of the negative mental health pieces. And a lot of people, you know, didn't have other things to occupy their time or distract them. And so they turned to those kinds of activities, which—which didn't end well, there was, I think, a record number of drug overdose deaths. Uh, wow. Yeah. pandemic. So that's really sad. So I mean, there were some positive pieces. There were some challenges. It was kind of all over the map really.

JN 12:18
Yeah. Well, um, so then, in your own life, you know, how is COVID affected your family or day to day activities?

SH 12:30
So that's a great question. Um, it affected it in a lot of different ways. I had gone from working primarily in an office and being around other people and being part of the team to working by myself at my house. That was a struggle for me, because a big part of my personality is extroverted. I like being around other people. I like connecting with other people. That's why I do what I do. And so this was very strange. I also had children, I have three children, to seen.

[Pause due to dogs barking]

SH 13:19
And they were all in school. And all of a sudden, it became not only do I have to work my job from home, but I have to try to teach my sons in three different grades, their schoolwork or help them connect with their teachers virtually. You know, in addition to everything else that happens in your home doing-

JN 13:39

SH 13:52
So, I mean, because when you're at home, you think, Oh, I got to do this, you know, I got to empty the dishwasher, I got to do the dishes. And so I came like trying to be 300% of a person when you're only one person. So in addition to the fact that I'm neurodiverse, I have ADHD. And so to try to do all these different activities in the same space, I found to be really stressful, really challenging on top of the fact that I wasn't able to be around other people. So it was definitely a struggle, especially initially.

JN 14:27
Yeah. And then you mentioned how you had to go online and your kids had to go online. How—how did the outbreak effect maybe how you saw extended family, for example, or friends.

SH 14:42
So I think one of the things that happened that's changing is that I had I was working two jobs during the pandemic, and one of them was at the county and I think what happened is we really took extra Time as coworkers and colleagues to check in with each other support each other, we really strengthen those relationships. And that has continued. That level of investment in time and trust has created something wonderful. I think that's primarily where we got most of our socialization because we couldn't go out, we couldn't visit people, we couldn't go have lunches or do those kinds of things. So it became connecting virtually. And for a lot of my peers and people younger, that wasn't an issue. But if we're talking extended family, with aunts, and uncles and grandparents like that, that was challenging, either because they didn't have the equipment, they didn't have the knowledge or skill to use the equipment or all of the above. So it definitely was, was a challenge, I think, we found our own little ways to do that to connect with people. But I think, especially in a workplace scenario, we probably connected more than we would have otherwise. And it was just, sometimes it was just getting on a video call like this and saying, Hey, I'm going to work on this. And the other person's going to work on something else. But we just want to be as close to being in the same space as we can, right. So that, you know, if I'm writing a note, and I have a question I can just looking at Oh, hey, what do you think I should put down for this? Or what was your thought on this whole situation? Without having to go through the extra steps of calling and it kind of felt more like we were in the same space at the office? Like we would have done? Pre pandemic?

JN 16:47
Yeah. And then off of that, like with friends and family, what did you guys do for like recreation during COVID? Like, just to, you know, have fun? Yeah,

SH 17:02
that was tricky. So we did, like, viewing party. Um, then there was an app. Boys are outside playing in the snow, and my dad isn't having it. So the other like we did like viewing parties where you could be watching similar things at your house. Um, without being in the same physical space. There. There was an app that was called house party,

JN 17:56
I think, Oh, yeah.

SH 17:58
So it was kind of like FaceTiming. Again, like you, you would connect and know when you were on the app. And then you can play games like Pictionary, or there are all different kinds of games to play.

JN 18:19
Yeah, I think that one a couple times as well.

SH 18:34
So it's like a house party app where you could connect and play games, while seeing everybody's faces, which was really cool. I have a group of women where we do something every month, and we had just gone for a couple months of not. And then someone had that idea was great. It was great. There were times where we weren't playing games. We were just touching base. Like we usually would, you know, one of us had a baby. And so it's like looking at the baby and talking. So that was really nice.

JN 19:14
Yeah, that sounds nice. Especially during such isolation. Yeah. Um, and then, like, overall in the community, how, you know, how have you seen COVID affected, for example, like schools and businesses. You mentioned your son's had to stay home for schools but-

SH 19:34
So yeah, initially, at some point, everyone went home. And then in the fall, they decided to go back with kind of a split system of like, some of it virtual from home, some of it in person for certain grades. Some of it went back in person with masks and other precautions. I think the kids have really done a great job. I think work was very similar. It was figuring out how to safely come back to the office. So that we weren't putting ourselves at risk. We weren't putting anyone we were serving at risk. But that's really, I think, what everybody still had that attitude, especially in the beginning of like, we will figure this out. I think right now, people are really fatigued with it. There's only so much your brain and body can take of being in kind of crisis mode, before you just kind of start shutting down, you get really tired of it, you kind of get in denial about things. And so that's difficult, because it goes back to what we were talking about at the beginning of when is this going to end? How long is this gonna last? You know, and here we are, you know, over a year and a half later, having this conversation, and we've still got some, some big concerns, lots of progress, immunizations, which are great and have now, you know, been approved all the way down to two years old, which was a great relief to me, because once I was able to get vaccinated, I felt good, I felt better about being able to do my job and go out as I need to. But there was always this kind of running level of anxiety behind the scenes for me of my kids, and again, that I could not completely protect them from this. And so it became one can I get them vaccinated. And, you know, we were on top of it, like the day after my oldest son could, I got him scheduled right away, I told him, he gave me this big hug, because I think he was very worried and anxious, too. And we knew that that was a tool to help. And then my younger two, just little over a week ago, finally got their second vaccination. So the word relief doesn't seem to catch her. What that means to me as a parent to say, okay, like, at least for us now, knowing what we can do, and that we've done all we can to try to protect ourselves, gives you a better sense of like, resolve, that things will eventually come to an end.

JN 22:30
Yeah. And then, like going out, and maybe doing grocery shopping, that sort of thing, how have people around you been responding to COVID?

SH 22:44
You know, I think there's a spectrum, right. So I think there are people that fall all over the place, there are some people like I said, that maybe are tired or fatigued or are getting this information, and they're just kind of over it, for lack of better term. And they, they're going back to living their lives as they had pre pandemic. You know, without taking any extra precaution, or safety measures. I think most people are in the middle where they're trying to do at least some kind of precautionary level. And I think there are others who are still very, on the other end of that spectrum who are taking every precaution they possibly can. And I think people are also discovering what they want to keep even once pandemic is over. You know, I with with the children that I have. I think it was great to be able to go online order groceries, just go pick them up. Or, you know, even restaurants having apps where you could order things not have to worry about everybody screaming at you and a drive thru or trying to sit down and get through a meal in public to be able to go on app, just figure out what everybody needs, and then go pick it up. Yeah, that's great. I enjoyed that. Not that I'm never going to eat in a restaurant again. But boy, that, you know, that was really slick that was really useful or saying like, I don't feel like spending an hour walking through a grocery store, hey, I could spend 15, 20 minutes shopping online and then just pick it up when I get a signal that it's ready. That is better, that's more time efficient for people or they just, it's more flexible. So I think the flexibility has been a good thing. Two people have been more flexible to a degree and now they expect that kind of flexibility now that we've had it to say well, now we know we can do this. So if that works for people, maybe that's something we should continue kind of like working from home. I'm sure a lot of jobs realized A lot of companies, hey, this is working better for our employees or works better for our bottom dollar or whatever it was, you know, we can better serve people this way in a safe manner. They might continue. So I feel like everybody's, there's not necessarily one majority, I would say everybody's all over the spectrum. But I think everybody's kind of trying to do the best that they can.

JN 25:30
Yeah, for sure. I'm in like, “self-isolation” and “flattening the curve” have been those two big ideas right now. And you mentioned how you're, you're working towards that with your vaccines and getting your family vaccinated? Have you seen like, how maybe your friends and family have been working on that as well? Or?

SH 25:54
Yeah, I mean, I think I work with a lot of kind of service to other people, whether that's in the medical field, the mental health field, law enforcement. And I think that just about everybody I know, has been able to review the research, consult with who they needed to, and take those precautions, you know, whether it's, you know, vaccines, masking, sanitizing distance, I mean, most of us try to do as many as possible, within comfort level. So, for example, at my office, and a lot of people have switched their offices around, but my actual office, every seating arrangement is now six feet apart. So that whether or not they want to take a precaution, now it's kind of built in. I think, you know, people are still sanitizing. Masking, I think we've seen a lot less of other illnesses. Because of those things. I think, again, it's going to be a matter of what people want to keep. I like having sanitizer in the car. No. So whenever I come out from a store, I'm, you know, continuing to do that. And I think that's important. You know, it's most of the people that I know have to mask for work, sanitize, glove up, keep their distance, what have you. So most of them are on that end of the spectrum with us where they're doing the best they can limiting outings. Yeah,

JN 27:45
yeah. And then, throughout the pandemic, have you or anybody, you know, have gotten have you guys gotten COVID at all.

SH 27:54
So I have not my oldest son has not my two younger children did when they went back to school just this couple months ago in September. And it was interesting, because there was a positive contact in one of their classes. And so we get them tested as a precaution so that they could go back to school sooner. Because they, they weren't displaying any symptoms, they felt fine. They seem to be functioning normally, only to find out that they were positive. And so they were really lucky in that they had one of the more asymptomatic cases. So we were thankful for that. And we had been exposed because just due to timing circumstances, we weren't notified. You know, within a day or two, it was more like five or six days. And so then, you know, I'm getting tested, my oldest is getting tested, and luckily we were negative. But yeah, that was the whole process. And I feel like that's the other part people are struggling with is the testing, the quarantining how that impacts their lives, even if they're not necessarily the one who has been exposed or tested positive, but you're living in the same house or you've had contact with that person or, you know, one of your kids versus the other and it's, it gets real sticky real fast. Yeah, we were lucky in terms of nobody was seriously ill. So I'm very thankful for that. But yeah, that's, that's been our only brush with it. And hopefully the last.

JN 29:37
Yeah. And then you mentioned how you and your family have gotten vaccinated. Have you right away? Did you have any, like concerns going into the vaccination, getting vaccinated are learning about

SH 29:49
it? Not um, you know, my, myself and my sons have all been vaccinated for various other illnesses. This. I had no concerns or reactions about those. So I didn't have concerned a reaction to this. I knew the research was there, I had reviewed what was going on. I consulted with my doctor. And so I didn't have any, any concerns really about that. And once I, it was helpful in that I was able to be vaccinated first, so I knew what to expect. So then I wasn't as worried when my children were vaccinated, because I knew kind of what that would look like for them and how that symptomatically might play out in those days afterward.

JN 30:40
Yeah, in like, going off of that, did you get any side effects from the vaccine? Or did your kids get any side effects?

SH 30:48
Um, I did. The first one. The second one I did for about 24 hours, where I was planning to go to work and I ended up canceling everything kind of flu like stuff, mostly fatigue. Some achy, Enos, some feverish Enos but mostly fatigue to the point where I would get up to use the restroom, maybe grab something to eat if I could. And as soon as it sit back down, I'd be sleeping again. You know, when a few hours have passed, and it just kind of repeat that cycle. But after 24 hours, I felt significantly better. I think I still had the sore arm. But that was it with the boys. My oldest was similar Henry, he except his were more from the 24 to 48 hour period after the second dose. The first one he was fine. The second one. He needed a lot of rest. sore arm and the younger two kind of same thing where they're just fatigued, sore arms, but nothing. Nothing drastic, or, or anything like that. That's good. Yeah.

JN 32:10
And then, during the pandemic, getting your information, what were your main sources to learn more about the know what's going on? I guess?

SH 32:19
Yeah. So I'm very lucky in that I have quite a few people in the medical field. Are there nurses or nurse practitioners? Social workers, so they were able to send me articles. I also have a colleague whose sister is a microbiologist. Yeah, oh, we're getting a lot of like, links to articles and studies about what was happening, how it worked, the effectiveness on and so forth. So they were sending me a lot of those that I could review. I feel like whether I wanted to or not, there was a lot of information on social media. Not that I had to actively seek it out. But certainly, I think a lot of people relied on that solely. And that's, that's concerning, because that's mostly, I mean, it's a social platform for people's opinions. And so that's not necessarily based on research, and science. So I was very lucky in that it was really at my fingertips. Certainly anybody that wanted, I was sharing that with them, too, so that they could have access to that same information.

JN 33:33
Excellent. Yeah. And then do you think there are some important issues maybe that the media is covering or is not covering?

SH 33:42
Yeah, so I think one of the big things I noticed once my younger children had been exposed, and then when we found out they were positive, is, I feel like the media, unfortunately, had disproportionately covered scenarios where people were vaccinated, and we're still getting COVID. And so even though statistically, that was not the majority of what had happened. And so when that happened at my house, I just assumed like, oh, no, this is going to happen. And it was really once my eldest and I were tested, we were vaccinated that we came back negative that one, I was relieved, of course, and two, it was the vaccine works. And then part of me was thinking, Well, I knew that that's why I got it. But I think, you know, things were so skewed in the media of like, oh, well, this person did, but they still got it, even though that was in the minority of cases. That that was kind of in my headspace at that time.

JN 34:49
Yeah. Um, and then, early on, or maybe even now, our—your government leaders, your government officials in your committee Responding to the outbreak? Well in this community?

SH 35:04
Yes. So I feel like I feel like the city of Eau Claire has done a good job. Our Eau Claire city county health department has done an amazing job at getting information out there, trying to support people and help people and cutting down on the spread. The school here has. And I think it's a balance, I think it's really hard because in a lot of those institutions, you're trying to accommodate everybody. Which means, you know, people that can't be vaccinated for various reasons, or people that can't be masked for various reasons, or people that will need to be in closer proximity to somebody else for specific reasons. And so you're trying to, you know, come up with a plan to keep as many people safe as possible, knowing that everybody is not going to be pleased with that plan, that that plan isn't going to be ideal for everyone. So that's challenging. So I think they've done a great job, they've taken a lot of hits. I worked on the COVID hotline, when things first went down, probably in the end of April, May. And there was just a lot of panic. And when people panic, they want to find a source as to why they're panicking, and they want to shut it down. So then sometimes the health department, or the city officials, or the school officials became targeted. It's like, why are you doing this to us? When we're really they're just trying to respond to what is already happening? And what's in front of them. Right? So yeah, between that and trying to accommodate people, for example, like I worked, shifts in a hotel, where the health department human services were working together, trying to keep people that were homeless, and testing positive out of the public realm. And that had a host of challenges, because it's not a crime. You know, it certainly puts people at risk if you're positive, and you're out walking the streets all day. But if somebody said, No, I don't want to do this, or I'm out of here. You know, it became a struggle for everybody. So I think they've actually done a really nice job of trying to be safe and accommodating for everyone, which is a nearly impossible task.

JN 37:42
Yeah. And then, um, do you have like any thoughts about how maybe local state or federal leaders are responding to the crisis differently?

SH 37:54
You know, I live in a small town. I live in Fall Creek. And so I feel like, that's probably more rural. And there's different perspectives here than there are in Eau Claire, or even a bigger city like Chicago. So our school was great about inviting parents input, having meetings about, you know, what school would look like, our superintendent was giving us weekly updates via video where you can either join live review video, always asking if anyone had questions, concerns, to let him know, to call him to email him. So that was really great. He was getting a lot of input, I think the input is just different because of the rural community. So certainly, we wanted people to mask up, we were concerned about cleaning practices. And if there were enough staff to do that, and masking children and sanitizer and washing hands, but then part of it also came you know, when they're outside, can they get fresh air without a mask was the concern of some people. The other concern was, again, in the small school, now, they were saying parents could not go in to the building to retrieve their children. And so that caused some friction as well, because they're used to the school being like more of a community space. Yeah, maybe you'll be considered in a bigger city.

JN 39:23
Um, so then, you know, how is your experience transformed? Maybe how you think about your family and your community? Just throughout the entire pandemic? How's that changed her?

SH 39:39
That's a really good question. So I feel like initially, there was this great sense of community and pulling together supporting each other. I feel like that's kind of waned, which is going to happen in a crisis type situation where people are going to get squirrely, they're going to get restless, more irritable. kind of agitated, and some people tend to kind of cause friction with the people around them. I still think people are trying to do the best they can. It just looks a little different now.

JN 40:14
Yeah. And then knowing what you know, now, what do you think that individuals and communities and governments need to keep in mind for the future?

SH 40:27
Feel like we have to have a way to disperse information in a way that people can trust, whether that's the the avenues we use to disperse that information, the people that we use, the formats that we use, the way we get information to people, because that's been a huge difference is who has access to information? And what kind of information do they have access to? And how often? And what is their control of that information? Because that really influences the big picture of individuals. You know, if you're constantly being bombarded with something, whether it's true or not, eventually it starts sounding true, because you hear it all the time. So it's, it's a challenge, I feel like to disperse that information as accurately as possible as proportionately as possible, because of course, you're not going to have 10 news articles about, oh, well, some people were vaccinated in this house, and some people weren't. And the ones that were vaccinated, tested negative, yay. I mean, that's wonderful. And part of me says, like, Yes, I do want to hear that. But I also understand that's not really newsworthy to say, hey, vaccine works. Whereas it's more concerning, or people need to feel like they need to be more aware of the exceptions to those rules. So it's hard, it's hard to disperse information that accurately represents what's actually happening, especially when you're dealing with a lot of statistics and numbers. You know, when you talked at the beginning about, like, how many people have, you know, been vaccinated have passed away have had COVID. I mean, that's hard to wrap your brain around. Those are numbers. And it's just really difficult to think about. And I think that's the other thing, when you have direct connection, it impacts you more, if you have someone that's been with COVID, if you lost somebody due to COVID, that's going to hit you differently, and disproportionately than someone who hasn't. And so it's just hard, I think, for officials to juggle that, and try to get information to people so that they can make the best decisions for themselves and their families.

JN 42:57
Yeah. And then was there anything you wanted to talk about that we didn't really touch on so far?

SH 43:05
You know, I, I don't think so I think this is definitely changed the way people operate tively negatively, and some things are going to carry through. I feel like it'll be similar to like the Great Depression, right, where some of us had grandparents or great grandparents that did kind of quirky things, or things that we wouldn't think to do. Because of the situation then everybody else went through at the time. And that became the norm, right. And so, you know, the norm may look very strange and a few decades. You know, maybe I will have grandkids someday that are like, Why do you have to use sanitizer every time we leave the store, grandma, like, that's weird. But that's probably something I'm going to continue doing or to wear a mask when I'm sick. Or the whole sick culture of, you know, before especially in Western culture, it was oh, you have a little sniffle still go to work. And now it's everybody wants you to stay home. You want to stay home because you don't know what risk is, is you're bringing to the table and you want to heal. But everybody else at that workplace too, is saying no, you mean take time and you need to get better so that you're not putting anybody else at risk, too. So I mean, I feel like that's a potentially big shift that we see. Especially in workplace culture is when we're not feeling well. We need to take the time to heal and rest. And so that may be another norm that changes.

JN 44:51
Yeah, yeah. Okay, let's see. Um, I think that's all I have. Okay, so was there anything else you wanted to mention?

SH 45:02
I don't think so. I appreciate you doing this and your patience with my many auditory and visual interruptions.

JN 45:11
Oh no, you're totally fine. Yeah, thank you!

SH 45:15
I think its part of the pandemic too. Everybody's home and work kind of just trying to be flexible and understanding. So I appreciate both those things from you.

JN 45:24
Yeah, thank you. I'm gonna pause.

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